Your cross-realm love: 1.62D

[Caohmin]

"Well im glad its bringing you out of retirement"

Sidd is not my character. Sidd quit the game because archers have been nerfed so much and he wasn't having FUN. No one in Vengeance plays their scouts anymore because they are not a FUN class to play.

"However being one shot by Proto didnt take any special tactics, every seige he would drop scores of people."

No one is arguing about how much skill it takes to play a character the frontiers. IMO, it doesn't take much skill to play ANY character, especially a wizard, now that you mention it. Stand and DD, that's it. Skill in this game and this discussion is a non-issue and it sounds like you just wanted to take a cheap-shot at stealthers. /shrug

"Its been quite a while since he did so however and i think the new person playing him is not so good. Mind you I saw Proto out tank Noreen with no more than a 20% HPs loss on his part and heard of him doing same to some real Albion tanks so he was pretty damn tough."

None of this is relevent to the sorry state of archers in general. But since you mentioned it: One ranger one-shotted you a long time ago, so all archers are just fine? So what if ONE high-ranked archer played his character well against you. Should we keep all other archers down because ONE archer is successful? So ONE high-ranked archer out tanked another archer; so what? The random number generator and RAs helped him.

Since this is an RvR game, deciding class balance on 1v1 encounters is an extremely narrow approach and thank the gods, Mythic doesn't base their changes on anecdotal observation of one player. I regularly kill Healers; does that mean Armsmen need a nerf?

"/Face doesnt do a lot when you are totally outranged btw and against a good archer he will have you in serious trouble before you can do squat."

Where is the rest of your group? Are you out soloing as a wizard? Guard works extremely well. The tools to be a successful caster exist, it's not up to Mythic to make sure you use them. Can't find a good group or tank to guard you? You're going to die then; accept it because that's the way it is. It takes a good group, working together to really be successful in high-level RvR. That's the way it is.

I've seen archers taken out by casters with just a few casts. From my own anecdotal data, I surmise that casters are overpowered and need to be 'balanced.' See how it works?

"Add in shooting while hidden behind a tree and you cant even target them."

You automatically acquire your attacker as your target when someone shoots you.

"I would agree that RAs are not so developed in the BGs but not so sure on the resists as I think many players who RvR there have fairly good resist armour as do many of ours."

Basing opinions of high-level RvR on a BG character does not give you the whole picture and is also why Mythic has stated that they won't make changes to the end-game based on the BGs.

"One thing you will never convince me of is that stealthers of any ilk are more difficult to RvR with than casters or any other class for that matter."

Once again, the amount of skill it takes to play any character is not relevent. No one is trying to convince you that it takes skill to play a stealther, so why even mention it? It takes very little skill to play any character in this game.

None of what you said addressed the points that archers have been suffering from insane fumble/miss rates and that PBT, so prevelant in other realms, has rendered archers useless. I didn't see you refute the Scout TL's report of missing 4 out of 5 shots. Are 80% of your spells resisted? Don't you see an archer missing 80% of his shots as an issue?

Sorry, but you have failed to convince me that archers don't need help. I play several casters, no archers and even I can see that archers are in a sorry state. Your one example of a successful archer one-shotting you is just not enough to sway me. Now, if I was reading posts on the boards of all archers, from every realm, one-shotting people left and right on a daily basis (like they did in the far, distant past), you would have a point, but this is just not happening. Archers, in general, need some love and Mythic agrees.

[Malison]

Bah, you're all a bunch of lying sons of bitches.  Archers don't suck, you suck.  Bolters don't suck, you suck.

Cabalists suck!

j/k

[Lifesbane]

one thing, the differences between characters in the BG's and high-level rvr is more then just RA's. for one, caster's cast times will drop a lot from lvl 35 to level 50, nevermind level 24 to level 50. its a LOT easier for a caster to get their cast time down to 2 sec then it is for an archer to get it down there with a 5.5 speed long bow. we could use a faster one but then you lose a lot of damage and a lot of range. also, a lot of spec lines get their best abilities at later levels such as pulsing bladeturn (the bane of my existance)

however, it looks to me like we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on some of these issues

[Sodom]

Man, I always feel funny reading/participating in whine threads, seeing as I've been playing one of the few character classes that is balanced, and has been balanced for a long time. Any real "problems" the Friar class has are problems shared by everyone (the block/parry bug, f'rinstance).

Anyways, I played a Scout to level 12, before they could carry stacks of 100 arrows. In fact, I've played every alb class to lvl 10, and at least half of the classes at least to BG1 level. You know what I learned?

Each and every class is viable if you SHUT UP and KNOW YOUR ROLE.

The tactical food chain:
Tanks > Asassins
Asassins > Archers
Archers > Casters
Casters > Tanks
Support classes = Support classes, as far as keeping the above equations balanced.

When this food chain breaks down it is a symptom of a broken game. So far, Mythic has taken steps to fix the following:
Tanks > Asassins: hence the IP and Left Axe nerf
Archers > Casters: Hence the new Pentrating Arrow
Casters > Tanks : Bolt fixes
As it is now, Asassins are TOO > Archers, hence the See Hidden changes.

As a Caster, you should expect Archers to kick your ass, much as you should be able to nuke a tank into the ground given the range advantage. If you can't do this, then you have room to whine BUT ONLY ABOUT YOUR OWN CLASS. It is every players right in the game to complain how gimp they are - however, please have the courtesy to not drag anybody else into your pity-party.

"Let me say right now, there is no controversy. I was just having some fun with my friends, and that's it. And if you don't like that, Fuck you and your family too. Now let's talk about the game."
- Charles Barkley

[Rosslyn]

ROFL @ the Sir Charles quote

[Zutroy]

Wait a sec - was that cat making out with that mouse? Cause if he was... <shakes fist>

[Bolldar Bloodaxe]

"No one is arguing about how much skill it takes to play a character the frontiers. IMO, it doesn't take much skill to play ANY character, especially a wizard, now that you mention it. Stand and DD, that's it. Skill in this game and this discussion is a non-issue and it sounds like you just wanted to take a cheap-shot at stealthers. /shrug "

This sounds a lot more like a cheap shot, however its true I don't like stealth in any form and believe the game would be better without it. The skill issue was simply brought up because it was implied that to be taken down by Proto was due to bad play, he did this to a lot of people.
 
"None of this is relevent to the sorry state of archers in general. But since you mentioned it: One ranger one-shotted you a long time ago, so all archers are just fine? So what if ONE high-ranked archer played his character well against you. Should we keep all other archers down because ONE archer is successful? So ONE high-ranked archer out tanked another archer; so what? The random number generator and RAs helped him."

Archers in general back then were much like Assassins now, I don't desire archers to perform badly, just not return to the days when they were overpowered. And no Proto in both duels and RvR did this type of thing quite consistently. My original statement actually related more to Zerkers/enchanters with the aside that I didnt like the BT penetrating abilities and thought archer damage output was ok.

"Since this is an RvR game, deciding class balance on 1v1 encounters is an extremely narrow approach and thank the gods, Mythic doesn't base their changes on anecdotal observation of one player. I regularly kill Healers; does that mean Armsmen need a nerf?"

Given there success in class balance to date I think there methods are pretty suspect. And my opinions are not derived from one isolated instance, archers in general back then were overpowered. Though that is past it would be bad to return to that situation. Given some of the other changes that are coming through Im not sure that situation will come about.

"Where is the rest of your group? Are you out soloing as a wizard? Guard works extremely well. The tools to be a successful caster exist, it's not up to Mythic to make sure you use them. Can't find a good group or tank to guard you? You're going to die then; accept it because that's the way it is. It takes a good group, working together to really be successful in high-level RvR. That's the way it is. "

Soloing as a wizard is as im sure you know instant death, guard work well when you can get it, often it is not available and if you are other than an ice wizard you are unlikely to get it.  I can remember being guarded just once as a fire wizard. As to the tools existing to be successful? well for some classes they are in very short supply and if your group is anything but optimal  you are in trouble. Ill admit at my regular play times there is seldom even a full group let alone an optimal one and guards for even a ice wizard are a rarity and yes I have little choice but to wear that.

"I've seen archers taken out by casters with just a few casts. From my own anecdotal data, I surmise that casters are overpowered and need to be 'balanced.' See how it works?"

Well I haven't and I seriously doubt that is true accross the broad spectrum (though im assuming your are making that statement to illustrate rather than as an example), however im not basing my views on just a few instances but on what I have seen them do to me and  to others over a long period of time. And im not saying archers need nerfing, I know the assassin abilities were a major problem for them, truth is I see very few archers other than in seige situations dur to that but in those it is generally the archers who have the upper hand.  Archer abilities generally are closer to each other than caster ones which differ radically both between realms and between classes thus making making broad caster based assumptions far less realistic than those about general archer abilities.

"You automatically acquire your attacker as your target when someone shoots you."

This is true only if you do not already have a target in my experience, very often you do and you dont automatically aquire the person shooting you.

"Basing opinions of high-level RvR on a BG character does not give you the whole picture and is also why Mythic has stated that they won't make changes to the end-game based on the BGs."

My opinions are not based solely on my scout but also on the receiving end as a 50.

"Once again, the amount of skill it takes to play any character is not relevent. No one is trying to convince you that it takes skill to play a stealther, so why even mention it? It takes very little skill to play any character in this game. "

I don't agree with that so well have to agree to disagree.

"None of what you said addressed the points that archers have been suffering from insane fumble/miss rates and that PBT, so prevelant in other realms, has rendered archers useless. I didn't see you refute the Scout TL's report of missing 4 out of 5 shots. Are 80% of your spells resisted? Don't you see an archer missing 80% of his shots as an issue?"

Elsewhere it was stated that the fumble rates do not vary with level, nor do the miss rates. My experience then as a 26 archer is valid and while i don't doubt people like Durandana in citing dificulties I also know I don't miss often at all. I also very rarely fumble. Ie 1 fumble in 10 fights. I don't pretend to undestand why that is, but I know it is a fact. What changes at higher levels to make you miss/fumble more? Resists?? they lessen damage not stop you hitting (correct me if im mistaken there ) RAs?? I dont really know of any that make any of my charactes harder to hit by an archer.

"Sorry, but you have failed to convince me that archers don't need help. I play several casters, no archers and even I can see that archers are in a sorry state. Your one example of a successful archer one-shotting you is just not enough to sway me. Now, if I was reading posts on the boards of all archers, from every realm, one-shotting people left and right on a daily basis (like they did in the far, distant past), you would have a point, but this is just not happening. Archers, in general, need some love and Mythic agrees."

I wasn't aware I was trying to convince your of anything, nor am I. I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours, neither of which will influence Mythic in the least. Yes archers needed some help, what worries me is the historical tendancy to go too far and having been the victim of uber archers I have no desire to revisit those days. I would suspect that the new 2.5sec cast time for bolters might be just that also and certainly if implemented give archers a problem and prob most other classes as well given most bolters should be able to reach the hard cap of 2 seconds.

(Edited by Bolldar Bloodaxe at 4:56 am on May 8, 2003)

[Mchagen]

One thing I'd like to mention.  I've played quite a few 50's and given the decision to play either an archer or a caster, I'd choose archer.

I like the ability to survive 10% of all fights.    

[Malison]

Oh ho ho!  Nice one Volkmar.  I survive 10%...if im in the zerg

I don't think I've seen such a heated argument on this board in a while.  I think Sodom was correct, in that just about anyone can be effective if they shut up and learn their role.  That is, until Mythic decided to tweak the game balance.  RAs and spellcrafting put it over the top.

In a group situation it goes:
Tanks>casters, support, archers
Assassin>archers,casters, support
archers>casters

In solo situation it goes:
casters>tanks (unless they have some RR and you don't have a pet)
archers>casters
assassins>archers, casters

And don't ever dare say you don't have to have skill to play this game.  Maybe for simple classes that get one primary attack form, but for a caster that may not always be true.

In any given fight, i have to dot, nearsight, disease, send pet, run away, root, and lifetap.  Sometimes I'll even throw a life transfer.  If i don't have a quick eye and hand, i pick the wrong target to nearsight, my aoe's only hit one person, or i get rushed by a tank who can 2 shot me.  I know druids have a similary situation, heals, dots, roots, pets.   So I say skill has a GREAT deal to do with how effective a player can be for those who's roles are quite varied.

BTW, we need some heavy damage dealers in our beatsquad, preferrably some wizzies or armsman, I don't have anyone to do enough damage and let Melissima block for him/her.

Enough of my rantings for now.

[Durandana]

Tell you what,

Any of the Casters in the guild that wanna copy over to Pendragon and test things with me i will gladly do it.

We can see just how much damage both of us do to each other. Fair enough?

BTW... I don't use my Heavy Longbow since that extra half a second can be death in RvR. My Dragon bow is 5.0 speed not 5.5 speed. There is a little less damage right there and for me to really make sure that my shots get through PbT i have to use Hunting bow which is totally worthless damage. Now if i have really good buffs from a friendly Cleric i can use the Dragon bow and still have really good speed, but if i am solo or no buffs then its the crappy hunting bow.

[Malison]

Malison was copied over to pendragon this morning, I'll get on Pendragon today and we can duel a few times.  Will be interesting to see what kind of damge i see you do.  I'm going to respec him to spirit after our duels.  I don't really fear archers much with my spirit speed buff, runies are a different matter.

PS: I'll get on Iseult first just to see if you are around.  Maybe we can have some fun killing in caledonia afterwards

(Edited by Malison at 10:46 am on May 8, 2003)

[Bolldar Bloodaxe]

I would be interested in testing, but how do you get to Pendragon?? I tried once in the past, got the message when i did the command but never got the email confirmation nor got a character created.

[Malison]

1. Log into pendragon and create a level 1 character. Your copy will retain this characters name.
2. Log into that character and type:

/charcopy Iseult Amerasu

3. Log off that character, and wait till you get the confirmation email. Do not log back into that character until you receive an email.

Make sure you have all the equipment you want the copy to have equipped before  you do the command.  For instance, if you want to copy to pendragon and respc to fire, make sure you have a Fire staff equipped on Amerasu.

I have 4 copies of Malison there now, 1 matter, one body, and 2 spirit.  Its great fun.

[Bolldar Bloodaxe]

Ah I did log back before i got a confirmation email, though I actually never got an email. Would that explain it?

[Malison]

Either that, or they don't have your proper e-mail address?  Or you may have just mistyped it.  The important thing is just to remember to type /charcopy Iseult Amerasu from your Pendragon character.