Guild Rules

[Rosslyn]

I might have griefed someone today, I'm not really sure and I honestly am not too worried about it.  I had logged in DF at diamond mobs near the shredders, and there were two hibs there (a yellow tank, so he may have bee lvl 50, and a green healer).  Knowing that I'd never get out of there w/o getting killed by them since I was on the other side of the room and they were blocking the entrance, I waited for the tank to pull a mahr.  At that point I stunned him, then went into melee w/ the green healer (druid, I think).  I killed the greenie and got the rp's, so he didn't suffer xp loss.  I killed the tank too, but got the "was damaged by an npc" message and got no RP's, so it's possible he lost some if he was under 50.  

As has been mentioned above though, if you XP in DF, you are basically asking for it.  It's an RP zone.  Also, if you XP in DF right next to the enemy's area w/ a 2-man group, you're really taking your chances.  Thirdly, if you die to a frigging rejuv cleric, there is no way in hell you will complain to anyone about it, because it's probably already causing you sufficient embarassment that you're likely to just delete your character and go back to playing solitaire.  

I'll admit that if I'm solo in the frontier and I feel like someone who could easily take me out waits until I'm engaged w/ a mob and then just stuns me, well yeah that's just mean-spirited (but also something I could avoid by staying out of the frontier).  However, I recall a time when several of us were XP'ing at the ellyll village, and some sneaky Spiritmaster waited until we had pulled a Champion or something, and he sicced his pet on our cleric and caused all sorts of mayhem.  I think we all died (or close to it), and he probably got some RP's.  In that case, I tip my hat to the person for taking advantage of the situation and being resourceful.  It's not often that one solo person can take out an entire group, and if you can get away with it then more power to you.

[Bolldar Bloodaxe]

Cant say I agree that players in frontier or DF are fair game to cause exp loss to just cos they are there, kill them perhaps, but exp loss no. If they had a choice perhaps, tho to me its not a nice thing to do under any circumstances. But truth is, quests require you to go to the frontier often, and certain items of equipment you can pretty much only get in DF (focus staffs for instance) so you dont get a lot of choice at all.

I know that sometimes it will be unavoidable but seems like something that should be avoided if possible. Also if that isnt greifing what is exactly?? Assume though from some officer comments here that greifing is ok under our guild rules not that i plan to do it.

[Rosslyn]

Well, whether you agree or not is certainly up to you and I for one respect your opinion.  I just disagree with it.  In simple terms, I think griefing is going out of your way to cause an xp death when you could easily avoid it and take the person out when they've finished fighting and healed up.  On the other hand, some situations call for using the mobs to your advantage (i.e. you're taking on a bigger group).  Also, if someone manages to keep pulling mobs without ever quite healing to 100%, I don't think anyone's obligated to sit there for an hour and wait until they're done xp'ing.  At that point, you kill them.

As far as the excuses of quests and some loot only being available in RvR zones, I think that's BS.  Yes, there are a few quests that take you out there.  They typically don't take you out to a certain spot to farm Ellylls, or any of the other popular xp spots.  As for loot, the reason some of the loot in these areas is good is because of the risk involved in getting it.  That risk, aside from the mobs, is the potential presence of realm enemies.  

If you want to take great pains to never cause an xp death for someone, that's admirable.  However, I for one don't plan on standing next to a group of mids while they finish off a Nightmare in DF, because I can be sure that I am not guaranteed the same courtesy.  An example to consider is the group of players (hibs in my experience) who prey on Alb XP groups at the Ellylls.  They take advantage of their non-aggro status with those mobs and hide in the ruins, and come out and stun us at every opportunity while we're pulling mobs.  Is it frustrating?  Yes, definitely, but to me the frustration isn't because they're trying to cause an xp death to a larger group of albs.  The frustration is there only because I can't chase them into the damned ruins and finish them off!  

[Kirin]

Griefing is: the act of purposely killing somone to provoke an exp loss. an example of this is:
http://www.routehero.com/boris/grief3-3.jpg

now, to justify it, you have to draw a line. Are you griefing because you want to? or is it to save your own skin? If you go out to provoke griefs, thats just lame.. if however youre in a situation like Pheuns where basically, if you dont wait the for guy to pull a mob, youre gonna get killed, id rather call it survival.
Theres nothing in the guild rules about griefing, just like theres nothing in the guild gules about co-operation with other realms on raids. I choose to never do it, even if the mids have all the relics and hibs are raiding or whatever, enemies are enemies wether or not we have common goals, we're still enemies according to the game rules, not the guild rules. Therefore Vengeance leaves the choice up to you. If youd rather die fighiting a 3vs1 battle honorably with no help from a mob in DF or stand a chance of winning after the grp pulls a mob, thats your own descision, but it will not be condoned by the Guild in any way.
IF HOWEVER, you go out to common exp spots just to grief (in which case you DONT get RP for kills) then youre just lame (personal opinion) and just want to provoke other peoples downfall (see pic i posted).
thats it form me

[Nari]

LOL, now THAT was a grief kill...

[Lifesbane]

griefing when its avoidable is pretty lame

unless of course your griefing a chanter

[Mchagen]

I guess it was BS when I was given all my epic quests from 40 to 48 in the frontiers.  On several characters...  

But I don't remember if I've ever been killed while facing off against a mob called for by an epic.  Mostly because I either do them when few people are on or because I can't get to them because there are too many enemies in the frontier.  I just don't try to.  

I don't think epics should have been in the frontiers at all.  It's mythics idea of 'streamlining' pve into pvp.

I don't like griefing myself, but as others said, there's risk involved in being in these zones.  Partially why I rarely go to df any more.  AC is much better imo.      

[Caohmin]

"Assume though from some officer comments here that greifing is ok under our guild rules not that i plan to do it."

That's a huge assumption based on your opinion of what is and is not 'griefing.'

To me, it's very simple: There are plenty of places to exp safe from enemies. You assume all risks when you go to an RvR zone. If you don't want to kill an enemy engaged with a mob, that's up to you. Saying that the officers in Vengeance condone grief play is flat out wrong and is based solely on your opinion.

A better example of grief play is the guy that killed the DF merchants in his own realm and prevented his ream-mates from buying equipment. He did this repeatedly for hours and several nights in a row and said he was doing it to piss off the people in his own realm.

Harassing or griefing your own guildies/realmmates is worse than causing your enemy a little loss of experience. There's very little someone can do about someone in their own realm harassing them except to /appeal.

However, if you want to avoid an exp death by the hands of the enemy you can just zone out and go somewhere else.

(Edited by Caohmin at 8:33 am on Feb. 24, 2003)

[Bolldar Bloodaxe]

I think the definition of greifing is pretty clear and it isnt doing stuff to your own realm mates. Nor do I in anyway agree that you can avoid either DF or frontiers, that simply flies in the face of the facts which anyone who has done quests will realise since they repeatedly take you into the frontiers. But we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.I dont think my comments involve any huge assumptions since I have simply gone off the comments made which were pretty clear and saying something isnt greifing doesnt change the fact it is as the bulk of people i think would define it despite it not being in a dictionary.

[Kirin]

if youd like to keep this argument going, plz open a new thread. this is not exactly what someone trying to read the guild rules wants to wade through to try and find what theyre looking for

[Bolldar Bloodaxe]

Fair enough i was really only seeking a clarification not an argument and I got that.

[Amberryl]

/bump

[Kirin]

huh?

[Tydd]

I play with myself.

[Dargoh]

/bump
We know that Tydd