This is an idea that's been getting a lot of play on the alliance forums. Darith is heading up an effort to compile a list of people who want to RvR frequently. From this list, he'll be assembling rosters of 10-12 people per group who will train and RvR together as often as possible.
While the possibility exists for this to create an exclusionary environment, I'd like to focus on the positive aspects of the initiative.
I'd also like to discuss what you need to create a viable, even an uber, RvR group. Here's my thoughts on possible ways to divvy up players into effective groups.
Several factors contribute to a group's RvR viability. A given class may provide one or more of these features.
* Speed
* Crowd Control
* Damage
* Stealth
* Buffs
* Rez
Each of you can look at this list and immediately see where your class contributes. For example, a minstrel provides the very BEST speed, GOOD CC, and POOR stealth. A Theurgist provides GOOD speed, BEST damage, and GOOD buffs. And so on.
I'm leaving out benefits of some of the classes- PBT on the theurgist, for example - but this seems like a good place to start. I can think of several high-performing RvR groups for Vengeance and indeed for all of Albion. The lists below are just exploring options... again, I'd like to include everyone, and I think everyone can find a place in these roving training teams. Let's hear what you all think.
Base Group One:
minstrel, theurgist, infil or scout, 2-4 clerics, 2-4 tanks (pal/arms/merc)
Exchange the clerics/tanks as necessary, with the goal being to have at least two of each for muscle and buffs/heals. Well rounded with plenty of healing/smiting power, rez power. Trade rez functionality for damage by swapping out a damage tank for a paladin.
Base Group Two:
minstrel, 2 theus, wiz, 2-4 clerics, 2-4 scouts
mana heavy, twin bladeturn with speed and mana regen, no tanks, deal all damage at range. This kind of group works well in a guild like ours because we have more 50 scouts than 50 tanks. Could add a cabalist for nearsight in there and become untouchable.
Realistic Groups
With a nod to the 40+ Vengeance crowd, here's what we could realistically field if our recently playing members were all ready to throw down at the same time:
3 Theurgists (Darith, Jasleen, Kid - could swap for his cleric too :) )
3 Scouts (Reinn, Zutroy, Duran)
6 Tanks (Axe, Dargoh, Ross, Sheng, Bolldar, Doec) - though all of us have shown troubling propensities for playing nontank alts... maybe a strong contribution to an asskicking group could turn that around?
4 Clerics (Xem, Zaan, Camlache, Nikkine)
2 Minstrels (Gueuze and Rush)
Coincidentally, that's 18 players we can field... a solid pair of groups. The makeup isn't that bad in terms of the teams I listed, either... how do we feel about more guild RvR operations?
I'm all for it. I could definitely use some tutoring on the finer points of going to the frontier and not being back on a horse within 15 minutes. I'd love to be in a semi-consistent group where the roles are spelled out and we all play our part and share in the victories.
I have always thought it a good idea too have all the Archers in a group together, If you put together a group like the base group with 3 Archers and 3 nukers plus a couple others they will deal out some serious damage.
I am all for that idea. Remember when we was defending Bled a week ago. It was all the long range attackers we had that helped beat their first 2 attempts back. If we was roaming instead of in a stationary defensive place then this kind of group would have to have other groups around it for protection.
Just a little of my thoughts
I for it but it seems tanks are excluded from the "usefull" spots
they don't seem to have a use cept to distract the peopel we are fighting or take down doors at keeps. Kinda dispointed all of rvr is based on range basically who can hit who first.
That is the reality of RvR, though. I think tanks can serve a purpose... charging enemy casters. If I make a caster run around, I'm tying up one member of the opposing force til my side can deal with it. That's enough.
If we're lucky enough to get a mezz off, tanks are helpful for cutting down the opposing mezz victims.
And tanks are very helpful for offering themselves up as meatshields to let scouts and nukers do the real damage.
Amerasu just turned 40 too and there are several others that will be soon. Also Durandana and Camlache are the same person. That stills gives us 18(with about 3 more on the way) plus those coming back from trips(like Nari and Kirin) add several more. I think there are a lot of benefits to having semi-perm groups as far as effectiveness of rvr goes. I guess the question for me is: How do you decide who goes in which group? You can take the 9 highest players for one group and the next nine for another group and be fairly evenly split. Or do we use the stealther group concept? Or do we have a long range group that works in tandem with another group? Lots of different concepts can be applied here. Who is going to be the group leaders? Also a factor is who is going to be on at the same time? That has to be a consideration too. The concept of developing semi-perm groups is great because long term they will be ever-increasingly effective as they mesh as a team. In addition what about the players below 40? Can they not be part of a semi-perm groups too? I see no reason that they can't. It would be a natural for some of those players because they already group together a lot for xp. These are just some things that I suggest we think about prior to forming these groups.
Well as for the role of tanks and their usefulness. I will just say I cant do my job very well as either a Cleric or Scout if a Troll is breathing on me.... The tanks can help get them off me or never let them see me to begin with.
Reinn makes a lot of good points. I think the main issue in forming these squads is really practicality. In other words, people who are on at the same time and ready to RvR. There's optimal groups and there's effective but nonoptimal groups. Heck, look at AI- they've got a friar and a paladin in there.
Hey!! dont forget bout ,e!! im bqck in qction in a week guys;; see you then
Well--I noticed not too many of the 39 and below levels are mentioned. My question--are the 39 and below group even considered effective in rvr (I have noticed that a lot of Middies seem to be level 50)? I know I have fun when I go out to rvr, but I would not want to put my group in danger due to the fact that I am easy prey. I would hope that people would reconize that the levels under 40 can be just as useful :)
I think that 39 and lower can be very effective when gang raping various targets. They can also distract and damage nasty nukers while we all tear 'em apart. I'm not sure about damage effectiveness, but I know that you can still hit someone, which will disrupt spells, etc.
/bump
old idea from ways back but we might want to think aobut it again
Good idea. Just wish I was level 50 though :/ Even if im not level 50 i still con yellow to one and can nuke for 300 - 350 + while having PBT going. Damn you Caledonia for being so addictive :/
Level 46 Theurgist - 20 days /played - 0 in all tradeskills.
Last night's Vengeance DF raid showed us that we have quite a few 40-50 characters. Since our character composition has changed since this thread was started, maybe we should start thinking about what groups we can form with the current crop of Vengies.
I think it's worth a shot; we're pretty good in the healing/tankage department and that's what seems to be winning fights now adays. We're still lacking minstrels (I think Gueuze is the only one we have) and scouts aren't nearly as useful as we used to be in open field fights (just about every tank went back to sword & board, everyone has 2 insta heals, and all hib groups have 6s pulsing bladeturn).
If anyone has sometime to kill, maybe they could post a listing of all level 40+ active Vengeance peeps so we could see what sort of groups we could form.
I'd be up for that.
Hey now, don't leave out us inactive types! We have feelings too! :-)
I think I'd enjoy dusting of the ol' bardiche for some scheduled events, if any are coming up.
kewl lets make a plan!!
im in of course
/flex, me too :P
im up for it
as soon as i get to 43, im gonna have fun raping puny trolls with lesser telemon = P
Can you port pets?
No, but fast ones you can ride horses and they follow along behind you.
Im quite keen to do this in what ever capacity, Amerasu Bolldar or even Snarf when he hits 50. My playing times make it a little hard but are we still doing this?
sure.. the thing is, ive been thinking, 1 permagrp is too constricted and restricted.. dowesent let enough people participate really.. im thinking about building a roster of beat squads something like that, so we could on good nighht field 2 grps, even though they may not both be full..
im still working on it, trying to make it so we can create basically 2 grps that, pulling from a pool of vengeance people would actually turn up very similar grps (both grps have pallies, armsmen, clerics, speed, bt etc..)
ill kieep you guys posted on what i draw up
/bump for stealth groups
For the last week or so, we've been experimenting with an all stealther group in upplands. The results have been really positive and I think we've come up with the ulitimate setup:
1-2 Minstrels
4 Scouts
2-3 Infs
Minstrel starts off by mezzing while Infs line up perfs. Scouts then assist one another and shoot arrows into the same targets. Infs, after killing their initial target, have to protect the minstrel(s), or, if its a tank-heavy enemy group, one of the scouts needs to be on block-bot duty.
With IP and FA, there's no real need for a healer. The only thing really lacking are rezzes if someone dies (it's a long walk back to upplands). We had the idea of using "rez bots" parked in well concealed areas around upplands. I think they'd need to be around level 35ish to rez a 50 though.
The stealth group is working really well. But it leaves out a lot of classes, obviously.
Bah, you need me :P
PBT
11.0+ damage add
19%+ haste buff
47 + 12 Wind Magic which makes my damage anywhere from 300 - 500 + crits.
Ghetto caster speed :P
Sadly we have nowhere to put you and no way to protect you. Bladeturn and damage adds would rock but...
Yeah, Axe is right, it totally sucks, but that's where the game is right now. Stealth classes have a nerf coming (read: assassins), or other classes have a bump coming, or Mythic is gonna lose a lot of players.
Ok, I'm 45 now do I get to play?
:-P
Siddhartha
You're in!