Last night I posted on amotd requesting for all Alliance crafters to please speak with me at their earliest convenience. To save time (and because I'm bored), I wanted to post here the particulars of what I wanted to discuss.
First the scenario:
This past weekend, Bruiant from <No Mercy> contracted me to make him an MP arcanium bastard sword. He provided 1 plat up front for me to get started saying that if I come across a 99% to let him "see it" (interpreted as trying out, not settling if an MP was not made). I informed him that with my price structure 1 plat would only get him 20 retries.
After 20 retries I sent him a tell informing him that I had not made an MP asking what he wanted me to do. I assume he was afk as he did not respond back and appeared to disconnect from being idle.
This next part is where I claim fault...
I then assumed since I had heard nothing further, nor was given CLEAR instruction that a 99% was sufficient and to stop production (clear as in I cannot remember yes or no), that an MP was still desired and I was to continue.
I worked all through the following day. He sent me a tell asking for an update (which further added to my assumption that he indeed DID want me to continue) to which I informed him I was at try 50 (starting fresh from 1 and not including the original 20) and no retry. I admit another fault here in that I should have informed him the gold cost thus far as well, however I assumed that he understoon that if 1 plat only garnered 20 retries, he could do some simple math to understand the cost. My fault here.
He recieved another update at 60 retries and a final one at 96. At 96 retries I informed him of the rather large cost of the item and if he wanted to continue (by then I had gone into my asterite hinge reserves to continue funding). The monetary cost thus far had reached 4.4 plat with still no MP (Damn that random number generator). Unsurprisingly, he was quite shocked, as he clearly did not have 4 plat in any form (cash, diamonds, or other collateral)
After a few minutes of calming him down I proposed a solution.
Because I had saved numerous 99% qual swords (that had not been billed to him) for later sale, I proposed using the money earned from the sale of those swords as credit for him towards the tab thus far - the value of which equaled around 2 plat. Cover the final 2 plat balance, I proposed he get me a respec stone (which one didn't matter). The average value of a respec stone is anywhere from 1 plat to 12 plat across all servers (around 1 plat here on Alb Iseult) and was willing to consider it valued at 2 plat, thus covering the cost of my work. In addition, I agreed to let him have a 99% bastard sword completed from the original 20 retries. I thought this offer was more than fair because in the end, after all the math is done he would be scot free from a 4 plat tab simply by getting me a 1 respec stone (he had already paid 1 plat for the original 20 MP retries producing 1 99% bastard sword).
He however did not think this idea was fair. He pondered how on earth he would get a respec stone (a dragon raid took place an hour after our conversation at which he DID infact win a stone) or why he should pay 1 plat and a respec stone for only a 99% sword when he ordered an MP (remember he originally paid 1 plat for 20 retries, producing a 99% final - all of which is not included in the 4 plat tab, for something that he felt was totally my fault).
His proposal was for me to make the MP sword and he would somehow find the money to pay me (keep in mind I'm currently at try 108 with still no MP).
That was on Sunday. I mentioned this to Gendaryn <Reckoning> after asking a fair price for premade 51 items - trying to sell the bastards to make up the cost. Needless to say Gendaryn was appalled at the situation and immediately decided to halt all sales to Bruiant and No Mercy until he pays my 4 plat losses.
After talking to many other crafters (word spreads fast apparently), I learned that Bitaken and ALL of the other crafters in <Knighthood of the Read Dragon> also support the crafter boycott.
I do enjoy crafting, I am a very fair salesman with many happy customers, and to be brutally honest, the best prices in all of Albion. This situation however, has been a nightmare. I never meant to cause a realm wide boycott of an entire guild and I'm more than happy in just cutting my losses, wiping my hands of this, and moving on. Not to mention, I really can't afford to lose any more money on an MP that I have yet to make, on a customer that has an enormous bill, and still be able to craft for my other customers.
Bitaken made a good point to me when I talked to him. Unless people craft themselves, they will most likely not understand and appreciate what crafting is all about. Many are open to learning, but many are also willing to walk all over you. It's our duty as fellow crafters to make sure that the latter doesn't happen to us. I provided Bruiant with a VERY generous and easy out which he threw away. And I refuse to continue to lose money on a comission I suspect he won't be able to pay.
As such, I am calling for all Alliance crafters to join the cause and boycott Bruiant and his guild <No Mercy> from all orders and sales. While I hold no ill will or bad feelings toward <No Mercy>, placing pressure on his peers is the most effective way to make a difference. If <No Mercy> desires the future services of any who participate in this boycott they will encourage and assist Bruiant in acquiring said funds or, if he does not comply, remove him from the guild.
We cannot let people like this take advantage of us. Join in the cause and say NO to dead beat customers. Boycott Bruiant and <No Mercy> until he pays my baby money (technically 1/2 my cash belongs to Myshkal :( ).
In most cases I require payment upfront for craft-for-hire, specifically for these kinds of scenarios. Most customers know me and don't have a problem with this arrangement; I suspect you would get similar recognition.
Vengeance will support the boycott. The only complication is that we'll need to find a new spellcrafter, since I believe Kpaxjr is a No Mercy tradesman.
1) Balkazar Razaklab
Knighthood of the Red Dragon
42nd lvl Avalonian Wizard
Skill: 1,019
Sorry to hear about the problems you've been having and hope things work out for you. I may be able to help supplement your losses by ordering a couple thrusting weapons. =)
So we start off with a good transaction of 1 plat for 20 tries at making a MP sword. No problems so far.
Here is what I don't understand. "After 20 retries I sent him a tell informing him that I had not made an MP asking what he wanted me to do. I assume he was afk as he did not respond back and appeared to disconnect from being idle". If he was afk and timed out, most likely he did not get your message about the 20 tries and if you should continue trying or not. So with no instructions on if you should continue or not and getting no response back, you spend 2.5 plat of the customers money with out finding out if this was ok or not?
"He sent me a tell asking for an update ". Since he has not heard from you (time out / no response) Next you tell him you are at try 50. Nothing is mentioned if he told you to continue. But since you went from 50 to 60, I assume he did tell you (again not enough info here). "He recieved another update at 60 retries" again nothing is mentioned if he told you to continue or if you even heard back from the customer (need more info).
So at 96 tries you contact the customer again and find out he does not have the 4 plat. "keep in mind I'm currently at try 108 with still no MP". Why would you continue spending money when you know the customer can't pay?
Lastly the crafter still has 2 plat in swords. Why should the customer pay for swords that the crafter is going to keep?
I don't think the 2.5 plat spent by the crafter should be added to the customers bill. After all it was money spent with out his consent. If you subtract that from the 4.4 and add in the fact that the crafter has 2 plat worth of swords, it brings the amount owed down to nothing. (based only off the information given in the post)
First why are we banning a guild for the actions of an individual?
"While I hold no ill will or bad feelings toward <No Mercy>, placing pressure on his peers is the most effective way to make a difference". This really is nothing short of blackmail.
I don't think we as a guild should support this ban against a guild or the player. The posted message is lacking information, is full of miscommunication between the crafter and buyer, and to many assumptions by the crafter.
On a side note, I will doing a lot of crafting in Camelot. While crafting, I would be willing to advertise these swords for sale and give you all the money I collect from their sale at a price you tell me.
Um, because the buyer should pay for every attempt at a MP piece of equipment. The excess, non-MP swords are sold or salvaged to help recoup costs.
This is clearly not the case if the crafter is keeping 2 plat worth of swords.
I pretty sure I my understanding of how it works is correct. But if its not, somebody please show me where my logic (or lack of) has gone wrong.
All I'll say is that if I make an arrangement that includes me paying for each attempt, then it stands to reason that I should be given each and every piece of equipment created during those attempts. Aside from the sheer monetary implications, this would function as a receipt of sorts to help a crafter "prove" to an unfamiliar customer that they have in fact done what was asked.
Am I missing something or should the customer not receive the product of all the attempts? Why else would it cost 2 plat (or whatever the fee is)?
Typically we sell 98% back to the merchants at a loss of anywhere from 15-50% of the cost to make the item. This retry cost is what MP purchasers pay the most for. When making an MP you might make 40 or 50 or 100 tries before you score one, and that process might turn out 10 99% items.
What happens to these 99% items? Usually I will keep or resell or use them to fill an existing 99% order when possible. Actually many of Vengeance's 99% armor pieces have been provided at the cost of a single make because of my MP orders. I do not charge my customer for the cost of that 99% piece's retry, even though it's a reject in his eyes. In effect it's a "free" MP try. I know Nari does this too although not all crafters do.
The major issue with having 99s is that it sucks a huge portion of your operating capital into inventory. So instead of having 4 plat to craft with, if you have a half dozen 99% swords in inventory, you now have 3 plat that's useless to you until you can sell them off.
Finally, we hold guilds accountable for the actions of its members. This is why I am so hard on those of you who step out of line: each and every one of you carries the reputation of the entire guild and its history with you everywhere you go. It will be the decision of the guildleader how to deal with members who engage in poor conduct, and if they fail to deal with problems in a timely and appropriate manner, it can lead to the sanction of that entire guild.
I also think that there is a nicer way to resolve issues among people by using a better form of communication. Perhaps explaining your methods, cost, and expectations beforehand would have resolved this mishap.
I have no intention of supporting this because the request is against the guild, No Mercy, and not the player (even then I wouln't support it).
1. It was a rhetorical question, not specifically about the situation Glanowyn mentioned.
2. As someone who hasn't placed many crafting orders at all, I was curious about the arrangements that might be made. In an arrangment like Axe described, I could see paying a flat fee for a MP piece, and then it's kind of a crapshoot for the crafter. If they make it in two tries, hey great, i still payed 2 or 3 plat (or whatever the agreed-upon price). My point was that IF I'M PAYING FOR EACH TRY (and only then), I personally would expect to be given that material. Kind of like getting your old parts back when you get your car repaired, I guess. Obviously, if the crafter doesn't want to charge me for the 99's so that he can use them to fill orders (or to recoup some losses he may or may not have), that would probably be fine if it's arranged ahead of time, otherwise I think some people might consider it unscrupulous of the crafter to charge them for the lower-end pieces and keep the better ones because they're saleable. Again, I'm sure my comments reflect my noobness when it comes to the crafting marketplace, and they certainly are different from the prevailing practices, but they are my preconceived notions of what I'd expect. hehe, I'm sure some crafter will set me straight next time I place an order. :)
Perhaps it would be fairer to say, "Crafter beware" when dealing with these folks in the future. Having said that, I personally doubt I will take orders from a NM person after hearing this.
"...each and every one of you carries the reputation of the entire guild and its history with you everywhere you go."
People need to be held accountable for their actions. Granted, there was a huge miscommunication between buyer and seller here and some blame can go to both parties, but the buyer refusing to pay anything is not really an honorable thing to do. In fact, it's a pretty crappy thing to do and other crafters should know about this incident so they can make an informed decision on what they should do.
Refusing to pay or even work this out with the crafter should have consequences and one of them is this thread on a public forum.
Yes, people should know about poor tactics in the game, but there are ways less subjective then this post.
All of this could have been avoided if the crafter stuck to what the buyer paid for and requested more money up front for further attempts.
The bottom line is we only have one person's side of the story. That side is "how they remember" things taking place. To truely be fair both sides would have to tell how they remember things taking place. I would bet that the two stories would be very differant and what really happen would be someplace in the middle.
Now obviously this increases the price per attempt (if you don't assume sell back), but at least the customer wouldn't feel like they paid all that money for nothing.
My point being, people gamble when they decide they want to craft on consignment. Not getting the money up front is the biggest mistake you can make because if they lose, more often than not you're the one that gets screwed.
1) I do accept responsibility for the miscommunication, though I do not 100% of the responsibility.
2) None of the 99% qual swords that I kept for resale were billed to the customer. The materials were paid for out of my own money.That means they we're 100% my swords and the customer got a free retry. Despite that, I was willing to allow the profits that I made off them to go towards credit for the tab.
3) I have Bruiant a very nice way of resolving this issue. The net cost to him (after all my fuzzy math) would only be 1 respec stone. The 1 respec stone would equal the 4+ plat. In return, he would take home a 99% sword made paid for from his initial 20 retries. With all the dragon raids that go on, 1 respec stone definately does not = 4 plat anymore. But I gave him that option. And he said no. To him it was MP or nothing.
4) Bruiant has no intention of paying me until he gets an MP. In response, I have no intention on losing more money on a consignment that I have yet to make yet and that the customer, may or may not be able to pay.
5) My post is 100% a persuasive essay, of that I do not deny. I feel very passionate about this topic and wish to fully underscore the weight of the situation. This post was made to both inform you all of a situation and to gain support. However, each person here is their own person. How you choose to proceed is our own decision, which, as Mattee pointed out, everyone is entitled to.
:)
Have they changed the odds on these?? As i understand they were 1 in 50 chance but I get impression they are often taking more than 50 goes these days while i know people who have got them in under 10 in the past.
My understanding of the original post is this guy hasn't actually refused to pay, just wishes to pay when the item he asked for is produced. Given his perceptions of what he asked for and what he got, he probably thinks he has been wronged as much as Glanowyn does. This whole situation seems rife with miscommunication and too many assumptions on both sides. Prob the best lesson is that MP items are not worth it for what little extra they give you, I forget the odds but 99% items are far far easier to make and give you not that many fewer imbue points and you can make them sufficiently cheaply to actually have some spares. And if you order 99% you usually wind up with some 100% items cos Mythics stress detector doesn't notice the crafter trying to make the MP item :)
Im not sure I think the spec stone is an equitable arrangement nor something that should be used as an item of currency, but some sort of arrangement should be come to without maligning a whole guild of innocent people when especially when from the buyers point of view he has been equally wronged. I know when Penguins made mine we discussed what I could afford in case of mishap and he knew my monetary limits, thats something that probably should always be discussed before hand.
Best of luck resolving this, discussing it with each other or trying to again might prove your most fruitful avenue.
Obviously I'm not a crafter nor do I ever have any desire to be one (hence why I quit SCing). Seems like more trouble than its worth and I'd rather be out there cracking mid & hib skulls than argueing with some cheapskate over the price of a sword.
I know how hard crafting is, that's why I stopped at 500 fletching, 500 ac, and my bro at 800 wc. I seriously think crafting is a joke and a way for mythic to prolong spending actual money to continue playing this game for longer time periods.
(Edited by Mattee at 6:11 am on Feb. 8, 2003)
Somebody needs to get their posting rights taken away again!!!!
;)
(Edited by Mchagen at 12:03 pm on Feb. 8, 2003)