Vengeance

Lots and lots of stuff - read carefully. Remember, this is only a test:

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Dark Age of Camelot

Test Version 1.62d Release Notes

Thursday, May 1, 2003

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1.62d has many fixes, updates and tweaks. It has two major sections: one for Archer updates, and one for Pet Class updates. It also contains more Hibernian spell tweaks for various classes, as well as a lot of other bug fixes and balance adjustments.

NEW THINGS AND BUG FIXES

- Side Positional combat styles now will work an extra 15 degrees towards the rear of an opponent, and rear position styles work in a 60 degree arc rather than the original 90 degree standard. This change should even out the difficulty between side and rear positional combat styles, which have the same damage bonus. Please note that front positional styles are not affected by this change.

- Deaths from DOTs cast by players (including assassin poisons) after the casting player has died and released or quit will no longer result in an experience loss death.

- All Nearsight spells have had their duration reduced from 2 min to 1 min, and have the 1 minute immunity timer. This should help archers and casters to not be "blinded" for quite so long as before.

- (Classic Only) The new role-play clothes should now look correct on the Classic Client.

ARCHER NOTES

It's time to give Archer classes a bump in ability, as they have been somewhat left behind by the addition of many new abilities and spells in other classes. In version 1.62D, we attempt to bring the Archer back in line to be a fun to play class. However, it is not our intention to ever return the Archer to the sniping overpowered force that he was at Camelot's launch. These changes should make the Archer useful and fun, but not make him overpowered. Needless to say, these changes will need lots of testing on Pendragon, and we will make adjustments as necessary based on testing feedback.

By "Archer", we are referring to the Hunter, Ranger, and Scout.

Critical Shot Notes

- We've changed the way that aggression is calculated when Archers use Critical Shot against monsters. Now, aggro generated from damage done by a Critical Shot is divided among all group members of the Archer. Please note that the Archer will still get a fraction more damage than any other group member, but it will now be much easier to pull the monster off the Archer once it has been hit by a Critical Shot. This should make Archers one of the better monster "pullers" for any PvE group.

Arrows And Bladeturn

All three Archers now receive a new skill called "Penetrating Arrow", which allow them to penetrate, to some extent, Bladeturn spells. Here's the details:

- Penetrating Arrow will never go through Bladeturns (both pulsing and single-target) on the character that cast the spell. This means that a Warden who casts a bladeturn on himself will never have his own personal bladeturn penetrated.

- Bladeturns cast on group/realm mates can be pentrated. So a Hero that has a pulsing bladeturn (or single target) on him from a friendly Warden can have that bladeturn penetrated.

- Archers receive Penetrating Arrow based on their specialization in their particular Bow skill. They get Penetrating Arrow 1 at 30th spec, Penetrating Arrow 2 at 40th spec, and Penetrating Arrow 3 at 50th spec. Lower levels of PA do less damage by not fully penetrating the bladeturn. The highest level of PA does normal damage.

- Additionally, Longshot and Volley now penetrate ALL Bladeturns, regardless of who cast them.

- Please note that in this version we have made sure that self bladeturns will no longer be overwritten by other bladeturns.

Rapid Fire

The three Archers now also receive a new ability called "Rapid Fire", which allows them to release their bow shot before the normal bow timer. Here's the details:

- When an Archer has this skill, at any time after halfway through their normal bow timer they can release the shot.

- If you release the shot 75% through the normal timer, the shot (if it hits) does 75% of its normal damage. If you release 50% through the timer, you do 50% of the damage, and so forth - The faster the shot, the less damage it does.

- Rapid Fire shots takes the same endurance as a normal bow shot, but do less damage.

- Archers receive Rapid Fire 1 at 35 specialization level in their particular bow skill, and Rapid Fire 2 at spec level 45. The difference between the two is how much endurance they take - RF 2 takes less endurance than RF 1.

PET CLASS NOTES

In order to encourage pet casters to spec in their pet specialization spells, we are making many additions and tweaks to some of the pet casters in all three realms.

General Pet Notes

- You can now /face your pets.

- If you were far enough away from your pet for a long enough duration, sometimes your pet window would pick up another creature in the zone and start displaying its health. This will no longer happen - if you are too far away from your pet for too long, the pet's health meter will now disappear completely. When you move back in range of your pet, the health meter will reappear with the correct information.

Animist Changes

- Bombers now use the wisp model and will be visible at all times. Previously they used another effect that caused them to disappear in some cases.

- It is no longer be possible to summon turrets that cannot be attacked by melee attacks.

- Tangler turrets now cast increasing duration roots.

- Animists now have access to the RA Wild Minion.

- The Animist pet summoned by the Forestheart Ambusher Realm Ability have been increased to the proper amount of hitpoints for its level.

Spiritmaster/Runemaster Changes

- Added a L50 DD, Obsidian Strike, in the Darkness base list to make it more consistent with the base lists in other Realms.

Spiritmaster Changes

- Changed the Gift of the Fallen line to be realm castable with a 60 second duration. This means you can now cast it on friendly Realm members.

- Reduced casting time of the Dampen Lifeforce line to 2.5 seconds to make it consistent with other casters.

- Added a pet-only mez reduction buff, Tenacious Warrior Spirit at L35 and Indomitable Warrior Spirit at L45 in the Spirit Enhancement list, to help compensate for spirit warriors' lack of ranged attack.

35 Tenacious Warrior Spirit
45 Indomitable Warrior Spirit

- Spiritmaster pets, starting with the spirit soldier, now have a chance to take the melee attack for their controller. The chance increases up to the spirit champion. The caster must be standing close to the pet for this ability to be used.

- Added a pet-only attack speed buff to the Spirit Enhancement list.

10 Spirit of Melee
16 Spirit of Attack
21 Spirit of Combat
27 Spirit of Battle
34 Spirit of War
41 Spirit of Strife

- Added the Hinder Prey line to the Spirit Enhancement list, a pet-only offensive proc buff that gives the caster's pet a chance to ensnare a target for a short time. The speed reduction increases with higher levels, and it won't break in combat.

28 Hinder Prey
38 Snaring Blow
48 Hunter's Trap

Cabalist/Spiritmaster/Enchanter Changes

- Increased value on pet-only spec stat buffs to be equal to spec buff levels.

Cabalist Changes

- The Strengthen Golem and Hurry Golem lines should be checking the correct skill now.

- Added a line of pet-only runspeed enhancement buffs to the Vivification list.

25 Tracker Enhancement
35 Chaser Enhancement
45 Pursuer Enhancement

Enchanter Notes

- Changed Dazzling Flash line to a shout. This is an update to a change made in the 1.62 Pendragon series.

- The underhill zealot pet now will always cast the DD + debuff spell. Previously it also had a chance of casting a DD + Snare spell which was not as effective as the DD + Debuff.

- Added a pet-only buff to the Enchantment Mastery list that enhances the effectiveness of the pet's spells. Against targets higher level than the pet, this should reduce the chance of a full resist. If used against lower level targets, damage done will go up.

40 Beguiling Will
50 Insidious Will

- Added a pet-only buff to the Enchantment Mastery list that gives a chance of a self heal each time the pet is hit in melee.

29 Enchanted Armor
38 Shimmering Armor
49 Splendorous Armor

- Swapped the levels of the Enchanter Amplify Heat and Amplify Matter lines. Previously, Enchanters were doing high amounts of damage too easily by being able to debuff an extremely high level DD of the same element. With this change, Enchanters will still be able to use this strategy, but now the amount of damage they can inflict will be more variable.

New Heat Debuff
27 Amplify Heat
36 Endow Heat
49 Empower Heat

New Matter Debuff
23 Amplify Matter
33 Endow Matter
44 Empower Matter

Mentalist Changes

- Ghostly Enemy now adds undead to the list of monster types that can be charmed, and Dream Enemy can charm any type of creature.

SPELL/REALM ABILITY NOTES

- Self bladeturns will no longer be overwritten by other bladeturns.

- Changed the new Eldritch stat debuffs to be on seperate recast timers from spec debuffs. This update is to a previous 1.62 Pendragon feature.

- Increased damage on Runemaster Runes of Pain line to be commensurate with damage adds in the other realms.

- The Whip of Encouragement Realm Ability has had its reuse timer lowered to 10 minutes and
will no longer break in combat.

- The Excited Frenzy Realm Ability has had its reuse timer lowered to 10 minutes and it should properly increase a pet's attack speed.

- Strength (and strength only) debuffs and disease spells should no longer reduce a player's encumberance below their unbuffed maximum. Debuffers were using the fact that you could reduce an enemy to 0 movement speed as an effective one minute total snare with no counter, which was not the intention of strength debuff spells.

LIGHT TANK NOTES

- Increased the duration (and decreased the frequency) of the new Mercenary/Blademaster bleeds. This fix is an update to a previous 1.62 Pendragon feature. As a result, the styles now do the increased damage they were supposed to in 1.62b.

- The Dual Wield combat style Dark Tendrils is now based off Parry for Mercenaries. Formerly it was based off Evade. Please note that Infiltrators will still have Evade as the opening for this style.

- Berserker Left Axe Snowsquall, Icy Brilliance, and Aurora Borealis have had their damage slightly increased for the the Berserker (only, this change will not affect the Shadowblade). Additionally, Aurora Borealis now chains off of Icy Brilliance and has a cold-based DD proc. In a 1.62b, we increased the damage for one select chain for both Dual Wield and Celtic Dual, and now we're doing the same for Left Axe. Please note that this "increased damage" is based off the new 1.62b damage values, so it will still do less damage that it currently does in the live game, but it does more than it did in 1.62b.

CLASSIC CAMELOT WORLD NOTES

With the /level command, a system has been added to equip the newly high leveled characters with some base equipment. The following NPCs will be able to assist you in obtaining these items.

Camelot: Hadreth, Assistant Wells, Galaris Pritchard, and Lucia Pritchard.

Tir na Nog: Carraent, Aetheonyc, Rhyryn, Gwucyn, Somyr, and Caryan

Jordheim: Gair and Kelleher

Monsters: Albion: The Fallen Warriors in Barrows are now set correctly to undead monsters.

Items

- Instances where objects that began with a vowel but were prefixed by the article "a" (a orb of animation) have been corrected.

- All cloaks can now have dyes and emblems applied.

- (Pendragon Only) The Gold Etched Wine Glass (Hibernia) should now be set to the appropriate level.

- Future drops of the Sleeves of Night Fire (Hibernia) should salvage for chitin strips as intended. Any drop previous to this patch will salvage for diamond bars.

SHROUDED ISLES WORLD NOTES

Midgard Quests

Stoneheart - The Runed Cloak of the Trolls and the Cloak of the Troll Fathers needed to complete this quest are no longer tradeable.

Monsters: Hibernia: Aroon the Urlamhai in Galladoria should not aggro through the walls anymore.

Monsters: Albion: Caer Sidi: Lich Lord Ilron should no longer reset his encounter when he is not supposed to.

Items

- The Vine Covered Scythe and Verdant Scythe from Galladoria have new weapon models and particle effects.

- The Verdant Recurve Bow and the Primal Windwalker's Bow from Galladoria now have new bow models.

- The Dreaded Frostbound Fang (Midgard) now has a particle effect.

- Anyone with a non-glowy version of Aroon's Ancient Staff or Aroon's Verdant Staff (Hibernia) should note that particle effects have been added.

- The Essence Shifted Flail and Essence Shifted Whip (Albion) should include their correct name in combat text (ex. You hit xxxx with your flail, You hit xxxx with your whip). Previously, the flail showed up as mace in combat text, while the whip showed up as flail.

- The Azure Silencer Fang and the Livid Silencer Fang (Albion) can now be dyed with the weapon enamels from Caer Sidi. Please note that using dye on these weapons will change only the hilt color.

- The Obsidian Doomspear (Midgard) should now proc as intended, and the +parry bonus has been changed to +stealth.

- Quillan's Reinforced Vest (Hibernia) should now be dyed with enamel dye instead of leather dye.

- The Shadowed Blackthorn Mace (Hibernia) will now repair for the correct cost.

The biggest changes and possible ramifications:
Archers can ignore BT if it isn't self cast. Archers using Longshot can ignore ALL bladeturns. This realm ability will turn them all into mage killers, combined with camo, thats 900 RP every 15 minutes or so. Not so bad for archers, bad for any caster who doesn't wait at the PK for his group to catch up.

Rapid fire for archers, when you really really need to get that arrow off.  Probably great for interrupting casters.

Nearsight gets nerfed.  1 min duration (before resist) and a 1 minutes immunity timer.  The duration I'd be fine with, the immunity timer makes it a little rough, and means I'll be using it a lot less.  

Cabalist spirit spec buffs now buff like a cleric..weee.  And they get a pet only run speed buff.  I need to get on pendragon and test.  If it is as good as speed 5, he might actually be useful combined with resist debuffs.

Enchanters resist debuff moved to 49 spec.  The PBAOE enchanters didn't care.  Those light/mana hybrids (45 mana/30+ light) willl be the most affected.

Berserkers were brought up, so their rear position styles now do closer to normal damage.  DF is still nerfed, as well as SBs. Yay!

That's all that really caught my eye.

The can make it so that self blade-turns don't get overwritten, but Pally chants still erase my buffs? Laaaaame.

The pet class loving for Midard and Hibernia would be insulting if they weren't bossting the lines that nobody specs in. However, I'd still like to see a comperable buff to the Cabalist spirit line.

In defense of my brethern pet classes...

Cabalists DO have the best pet buffs, with this patch, they got even better. The sad part is, they don't make a big difference in RvR, partly because all pets are blue cons and get hit like such.

EDIT: afer looking at the spritmaster and enchanter changes, i think they actually have really good pet based lines now.  Taking a hit for your master? priceless! having your spell not resisted, or getting a free heal? sheesh.

Damn I cant wait to see what a 46 spec spirit cabalist can do.

(Edited by Malison at 1:06 pm on May 1, 2003)

Hmm, no mention of the style fixes for Armsmen that the Armsmen TL hinted at on the Albion Fighter Boards.

Oh well, the archer fixes might bring back Sidd and I like the 'free equipment for the /level 20, 30 characters.'

'- We've changed the way that aggression is calculated when Archers use Critical Shot against monsters. Now, aggro generated from damage done by a Critical Shot is divided among all group members of the Archer. Please note that the Archer will still get a fraction more damage than any other group member, but it will now be much easier to pull the monster off the Archer once it has been hit by a Critical Shot. This should make Archers one of the better monster "pullers" for any PvE group.'

I guess this is supposed to make archers more desirable in PvE groups? I don't recall pulling with Crit shot ever being a problem (except at the pygmy hut). Hell it misses 95% of the time against purple mobs anyway.

'- Deaths from DOTs cast by players (including assassin poisons) after the casting player has died and released or quit will no longer result in an experience loss death.'

I reported this bug to a CSR over 6 months ago and they just now got around to fixing it?

'- All Nearsight spells have had their duration reduced from 2 min to 1 min, and have the 1 minute immunity timer. This should help archers and casters to not be "blinded" for quite so long as before.'

Probably the best change in the patch. If you've ever played a caster, you know how frustrating it is being chain nearsighted and not being able to do anything about it.

'- All three Archers now receive a new skill called "Penetrating Arrow", which allow them to penetrate, to some extent, Bladeturn spells.'

A long needed change that will help archers alot in keep standoffs or 8v8 fights.

'- Additionally, Longshot and Volley now penetrate ALL Bladeturns, regardless of who cast them.'

Good to see that RA respec stone I used wasn't a total waste. I found that volley was more or less worthless in keep sieges because of PBT. You'd usually get 3 "absorbed by a magical barrier" messages and maybe 1 hit every time you tried to volley the back row of casters.

'The three Archers now also receive a new ability called "Rapid Fire", which allows them to release their bow shot before the normal bow timer.'

Good for popping BT and stealing DS. With a group & TS you could prolly clear a full milegate in 30s.

I'm hoping this is just the start of archer changes, but more than likely we're considered balanced now. I'd still like to see scout melee issues addressed and for Mythic to do something with our stealth line.

im definetly happy about rapid fire and penetrating arrow...as zut said melee/stealth still need to be adressed, as well as the scout class getting looked at specificly

This one is pretty big:
- Added a L50 DD, Obsidian Strike, in the Darkness base list [SM & runies] to make it more consistent with the base lists in other Realms

This combined with the 46 RC spec gives them enchanter-like debuff/nuking power, which til now they didn't have. If you had one or two runies (maybe a dark and RC runie) and a pac healer stunning that'd be pretty uber.

Albion is now the only realm without a nuker capable of debuffing his own level 50 DD.

Like i said in other post, if Stealth issues are not resolved My scout will still be mainly retired and If it isnt changed i will probably cancel outa frustration soon.

enough said

Im not impressed by the penetrating abilities for archers and all the love for other realm casters especially enchanters who needed to go in the opposite direction.  Survival as a Albion caster was already hard enough and this is just gonna make it a lot harder. Im really at a loss why classes which seemed to be doing well seem to be getting so much more loving than those which need it.

Time to play your arms Boll? ;)

sorcs need body debuff ><

and sorcs can debuff matter, but the debuffs are in the body spec. So in order for a matter sorc to debuff his own attacks, he would have to do half body and half matter... that would be interesting... I'd try it out if anyone's willing to give me free respec stone = /

quick question: how meny casters run around without their BT up? i know i dont. now, with PBT no longer overriding self BT casters though still always have their self BT up...therefor, NOTHING HAS CHANGED for most casters, unless you run around without BT...in which case what the h3ll is the problem anyway? i think most casters are over acting about these changes, nevermind the fact that we will be doing less damage and dont even have the ability to pop a bt if we wanted to anymore (example would be a group of archers /assisting eachother...that tactic has now lost its effectiveness, and with 3 or 4 archers in the group its actually less effective then it was before..as far as percentages go)

ALSO, if you still consider this a caster nerf, the casters of midgard and hibernia are much worse off then alb casters (as far as this "nerf" goes) because rangers and hunters have both have an extra line to spec in over scouts, resulting in most of them only speccing to 39 or 40 bow, as aposed to scouts who can more viably spec 45 or 50 bow

/rant off

Assuming we do keep our personal bladeturns up during a fight, this affects all casters equally Life.  First, the spec lines:

A scout can spec:
weapon
shield
stealth
bow

A ranger can spec:
weapon
celtic dual
pathfinding
stealth
bow

a hunter will spec:
spear
beastcraft
bow
stealth

So only the ranger has one more path to spec to be fully effective.  That path being CD, which they can just leave at 1% and still have a 25% chance to swing both weapons.  Hunters get a pet that destroys even those with Nearsight.  Rangers get speed, damage adds, self dex/quick buffs, and armor factor buffs.   I'd say that archers have equal tools to destroy their targets, with scouts perhaps being the worse off due to lack of utility spells.

Second, Penetrating Arrow only works on PBT or bladeturn cast by someone else.  With the new changes, i'm going to make sure i always have BT up.  Considering most of Albion only has 10s PBT, I could cast 3 of my self bladeturns in that time!  If i needed a pulse of a bladeturn , i wouldnt stand around for 10s, i'd quickcast one.   The fate of lone casters is still up to the gods who make you guys miss.  Penetrating arrow means you still hit, for most likely 75% damage, interrupt the caster, and most likely contribute to killing him if he's in a fight with a group.

I think they should make penetrating arrow a special shot though or allow a toggle.  I believe you should be able to drop the BT altogether, allowing archers to coordinate fire.

I think most archers who have a respec available will use it to take bow to at least 40 for the Penetrating arrow 2, and some probably all the way to 50.  Before, there was little advantage in specing bow past 39 as the return on damage was minimal.

And of course, those with Longshot are still going to be popping our butts for some serious damage.

Amerasu, once you see how much damage bolts are doing, I hope you won't begrudge the scouts their love.  On pendragon runies are hitting for 500 easily against studded, and thats without crits.  One guy got hit for 750 or so yesterday.  You will be 2 shotting them (1 bolt, 1 bolt) quite often...thats assuming you arent interrupted by their longshot.

Tishiri used to do over 1000 with crits on his bolts.  But that was old-school damage.  Back in the days of lower resists and fewer high-grade items.  I think his top number was 1200 iirc, on an even con.  

(http://funfreepages.com/i/images/images/arnold-melanie21.jpg)
/pharm

Heh I remember well dieing in one shot to Prototype repeatedly with Amerasu, not an experience i want to repeat anytime soon especially when i got to suffer same from Zerkers and SBs already lol,  that guy must have one shotted me like 50 times. And that was when BT worked, BT is very easy to loose and anything that hits you can cancel it. In a big combat you can be killed before you notice or can recast it quite easily. Im not sure what effect this change will have but archers were already doing ok vs casters in my opinion. They hit damn hard as it is, though they don't hurt as much as they used to but hell being killed in one shot was never fun nor a good thing.  Im going to level my scout some to see but so far he is fine in RvR with regard to damage dealing etc. Who knows though, i suspect the whole fumble thing had some level component in it since at 25 my fumble rate was fine and my archer can take out orange mobs without a drama solo unbuffed. It seems odd though to gimp a class as they get to higher levels :) besides i know the rangers etc who shot at my casters didnt seem to fumble too much :P Archers seem to be getting a lot done for them anyway, I really hope it doesnt take them back to where they were though since they used to be overpowered.

Bolts might have improved :) trouble is most wizards specced out of them thanks to them being so useless and of course since they making them slightly better we not getting a respec. Which is a pretty sucky policy since most Alb classes could stand improvement means we not going to see respecs like the middies who get one while being nerfed then get an improvement to styles to compensate for it anyway with there Zerkers. Eldritch spec lines were always more effective anyway I think, in part at least to the primary debuffer being common ie enchanter. Sorcerers are still a bit of a rarity by comparision so wizards dont often get to nuke against a debuffed opponent. Eldritchs can also debuff three lines of damage including there PBAOE and GTAOE and stun 9secs mez  and near sight amongst other things. Its a whole lot more flexiable class and does the same damage other than its top bolt (miniscule difference) as a wizard.

I might wind up taking Bolldar for a run but still think Poles too slow to be really effective and plagued by poor styles etc (there is a problem with landing a blow too with the reactive to styles type styles too, in that if anything mucks it up ie a normal stroke as you do your style you loose your stam for no gain, which given the time it takes to swing is a problem)  and high miss rates. How long has Poleaxe been totally useless for?? Never seen an answer to that  despite it being a well known fact.

Im not rushing to respec Amerasu till I see what happens anyway. Been a lot of changes, my overall impression is they are bad for Albion but who knows till we see the results.

Polearm styles are better than 2-handed ones. ; P

I didn't have a problem with my scout until after 35, make your judgement then.  You're getting killed by hunters and rangers, not scouts.  Hunters/rangers > scouts.  Scouts should have some ability in their bow line that the other two archers don't have.

Amer was you standing still for a long time waiting for a Crit shot to land on you?

Most of my Crit shots turn into regular shots because either the person is in combat or they are moving. Against a level 50 caster it usually takes me at least 3 regular shots to kill them. 2 shots if they dont have max resists from items.

And on the same subject i was out in Emain yesterday getting killed by casters in 3 shots. So where is the part that is unfair?  Casters can kill me faster than i can kill them unless i am buffed with 40+ Enhance buffs.

Get your Scout to level 50 and then tell me how you feel. the Battle Ground levels are no judge of the abilities at level 50.

be fortunate that a respec stone here only costs 500 gold. in mid, the same respec stone costs 7 plat.... thats a lot = /

"Im not sure what effect this change will have but archers were already doing ok vs casters in my opinion"

- thats because your looking at it from only the perspective of the caster. hypothetical situation:
your running around nuking and such, when suddenly get hit pretty damn hard. you say to yourself "WTF, i just got hit for xxx damage! thats BS, archers shouldnt be able to hit like that". so what you take away from that instance is that archers can effectivly and efficiently killer casters...however that isnt the case. all you have to do is hit your /face macro (which i segest all casters have) and quick cast the spell of your choice at mr. archer...if you got it, nearsight him, if you dont theres bolts, nukes, mez, dot, root (it'll interupt him and allow you to get out of range), insta-debuffs (again, interupt)...and thats just one way to pwn an archer. you have to realize that for every time he hits you for 800+ damage, he's tried (and failed) a hundred others. oakleif, the scout TL, has done hundreds of logs and tests...they have shown that on average scouts land 1 in 5 arrows in rvr. 1 IN 5! yep, thats 20% of your arrows actually hitting the target. just stop a second and amagine if 80% of you spells were resisted.

edit: i may seem a little hostile on some of these subjects, but thats probably fair, because i am. it just shows you how poorly mythic designed archers. nobody wants to be one shotted, and understandably so. mythic created archers, and in particular scouts, with sniping in mind (if nobody at mythic saw sniping when they put stealth, big range, and a very hard hitting ranged weapon on one class...its beyond me). this lead to people (understandably) getting upset. mythic, in all their wisdom, added ways to negate the abilities of archers, instead of just weakening them. so what you have now is set of classes that are endlessly frustrating and useless, but still have the PONTENTIAL to be devistating. its makes archers mad that they cant do crap, and when they are finally able to do what they do well, it makes the casters get pissed off. thats what you call poor class design.

/rant off

(Edited by Lifesbane at 12:30 am on May 6, 2003)

I see your point LB, but about the whole perspective thing, you should really take Lifezbane out RvRing more to get a better caster perspective

Heh, i take it from the perspective that my archer rarely ever misses, and has little difficulty taking down a caster.  On the recieving end they have in the past one shotted me consistently, the score vs Prototype is 50 for him zero for me. So forgive my lack of symathy they hit hard enough and quick enough that I can face all I want and they can still kill me cos I just dont  see them missing me very often. I also dont possess nearsight stun or any of the other goodies which might pervent them treating me like a pin cushion.

Wizards unfortunately dont have anything like an archers hitting pwr even post nerf and we certainly up to this date anyway, miss, get blocked get resisted also even if we have bolts (which most dont really have any more) and dont get he dreaded in melee message.

Archers are just one of a lot of classes which can take out casters very swiftly however *shrugs* unless your a enchanter of course :P

a level 26 scout is nothing like a 45+ scout in rvr, the two are in no way comperable.

amber, as ive said before, my ice wizard CONSISTANTLY lives longer in rvr then my scout ever did. ive been killed by archers plenty of times..one shotted, two shotted...yeah it sucks a lot, but in those instances the ranger/hunter deserved to win. ive also kicked the asses of rangers/hunters plenty of times without a considerable amount of difficulty. /face, quickcast spell...its as easy as that. the hunter's pet can be a bitch to deal with, and i must say hunter+pet > my caster-playing ability in many cases.

amer, ive been one-shotted by proto before too, and not just as my wiz, he's one shotted my scout on more then one occasion. want to know why? because i was stupid enough to stand around all day and let him line up a crit. if you've let him line up and crit you 50 times you must be using some tactics ive never heard of before.

edit: also take into account that proto is a very skilled player and has 1.5 million rp's...with that kind of RA spending power you've got some big advantages over your more casual players

(Edited by Lifesbane at 6:34 pm on May 6, 2003)

"a level 26 scout is nothing like a 45+ scout in rvr, the two are in no way comperable."

Which is true with just about every character class. Going against low level characters in the BGs is nothing like high level RvR, especially if you are facing opponents with tons of RAs. For one, resists in the BGs is low to non-existent, nevermind the difference in skill/experience you'll find.

Anecdotal data from one level 26 archer is hardly enough to change my opinion that archers need some help from the devs. Perhaps the random number generator has been kind to your character, Boll.

These changes are enough to bring Sidd out of retirement, that alone makes me think that this patch is a good thing.

Well im glad its bringing you out of retirement :) However being one shot by Proto didnt take any special tactics, every seige he would drop scores of people. Its been quite a while since he did so however and i think the new person playing him is not so good. Mind you I saw Proto out tank Noreen with no more than a 20% HPs loss on his part and heard of him doing same to some real Albion tanks so he was pretty damn tough.

/Face doesnt do a lot when you are totally outranged btw and against a good archer he will have you in serious trouble before you can do squat.  Add in shooting while hidden behind a tree and you cant even target them. In general the archer has the upper hand.

I would agree that RAs are not so developed in the BGs but not so sure on the resists as I think many players who RvR there have fairly good resist armour as do many of ours.  

I do also agree with what you said earlier about Mythic making a mistake when they created a sniper class, but would extend that to the assassin classes. Stealth in general as presently implemented was the worst thing they ever did partly at least cos there is no stealth, just plain old invis nor much skill involved in using it IMO.

One thing you will never convince me of is that stealthers of any ilk are more difficult to RvR with than casters or any other class for that matter.

BTW casting does require you to stand around, it goes with the turf, no instas no running nukes.

(Edited by Bolldar Bloodaxe at 5:03 am on May 7, 2003)

bah, just you wait, my pet will chase  you all down.

Well Amer, I for one am not gonna argue with you any more. All i know is i die too casters in RvR more than i can kill them. They can cast faster than i can shoot.

I didn't read all the paragraph drivel above.  

You have to remember Boll, that 90% of those archers that you mention are RR7+ and are fully buffed.  

"Well im glad its bringing you out of retirement"

Sidd is not my character. Sidd quit the game because archers have been nerfed so much and he wasn't having FUN. No one in Vengeance plays their scouts anymore because they are not a FUN class to play.

"However being one shot by Proto didnt take any special tactics, every seige he would drop scores of people."

No one is arguing about how much skill it takes to play a character the frontiers. IMO, it doesn't take much skill to play ANY character, especially a wizard, now that you mention it. Stand and DD, that's it. Skill in this game and this discussion is a non-issue and it sounds like you just wanted to take a cheap-shot at stealthers. /shrug

"Its been quite a while since he did so however and i think the new person playing him is not so good. Mind you I saw Proto out tank Noreen with no more than a 20% HPs loss on his part and heard of him doing same to some real Albion tanks so he was pretty damn tough."

None of this is relevent to the sorry state of archers in general. But since you mentioned it: One ranger one-shotted you a long time ago, so all archers are just fine? So what if ONE high-ranked archer played his character well against you. Should we keep all other archers down because ONE archer is successful? So ONE high-ranked archer out tanked another archer; so what? The random number generator and RAs helped him.

Since this is an RvR game, deciding class balance on 1v1 encounters is an extremely narrow approach and thank the gods, Mythic doesn't base their changes on anecdotal observation of one player. I regularly kill Healers; does that mean Armsmen need a nerf?

"/Face doesnt do a lot when you are totally outranged btw and against a good archer he will have you in serious trouble before you can do squat."

Where is the rest of your group? Are you out soloing as a wizard? Guard works extremely well. The tools to be a successful caster exist, it's not up to Mythic to make sure you use them. Can't find a good group or tank to guard you? You're going to die then; accept it because that's the way it is. It takes a good group, working together to really be successful in high-level RvR. That's the way it is.

I've seen archers taken out by casters with just a few casts. From my own anecdotal data, I surmise that casters are overpowered and need to be 'balanced.' See how it works?

"Add in shooting while hidden behind a tree and you cant even target them."

You automatically acquire your attacker as your target when someone shoots you.

"I would agree that RAs are not so developed in the BGs but not so sure on the resists as I think many players who RvR there have fairly good resist armour as do many of ours."

Basing opinions of high-level RvR on a BG character does not give you the whole picture and is also why Mythic has stated that they won't make changes to the end-game based on the BGs.

"One thing you will never convince me of is that stealthers of any ilk are more difficult to RvR with than casters or any other class for that matter."

Once again, the amount of skill it takes to play any character is not relevent. No one is trying to convince you that it takes skill to play a stealther, so why even mention it? It takes very little skill to play any character in this game.

None of what you said addressed the points that archers have been suffering from insane fumble/miss rates and that PBT, so prevelant in other realms, has rendered archers useless. I didn't see you refute the Scout TL's report of missing 4 out of 5 shots. Are 80% of your spells resisted? Don't you see an archer missing 80% of his shots as an issue?

Sorry, but you have failed to convince me that archers don't need help. I play several casters, no archers and even I can see that archers are in a sorry state. Your one example of a successful archer one-shotting you is just not enough to sway me. Now, if I was reading posts on the boards of all archers, from every realm, one-shotting people left and right on a daily basis (like they did in the far, distant past), you would have a point, but this is just not happening. Archers, in general, need some love and Mythic agrees.

Bah, you're all a bunch of lying sons of bitches.  Archers don't suck, you suck.  Bolters don't suck, you suck.

Cabalists suck!

:) j/k

one thing, the differences between characters in the BG's and high-level rvr is more then just RA's. for one, caster's cast times will drop a lot from lvl 35 to level 50, nevermind level 24 to level 50. its a LOT easier for a caster to get their cast time down to 2 sec then it is for an archer to get it down there with a 5.5 speed long bow. we could use a faster one but then you lose a lot of damage and a lot of range. also, a lot of spec lines get their best abilities at later levels such as pulsing bladeturn (the bane of my existance)

however, it looks to me like we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on some of these issues

Man, I always feel funny reading/participating in whine threads, seeing as I've been playing one of the few character classes that is balanced, and has been balanced for a long time. Any real "problems" the Friar class has are problems shared by everyone (the block/parry bug, f'rinstance).

Anyways, I played a Scout to level 12, before they could carry stacks of 100 arrows. In fact, I've played every alb class to lvl 10, and at least half of the classes at least to BG1 level. You know what I learned?

Each and every class is viable if you SHUT UP and KNOW YOUR ROLE.

The tactical food chain:
Tanks > Asassins
Asassins > Archers
Archers > Casters
Casters > Tanks
Support classes = Support classes, as far as keeping the above equations balanced.

When this food chain breaks down it is a symptom of a broken game. So far, Mythic has taken steps to fix the following:
Tanks > Asassins: hence the IP and Left Axe nerf
Archers > Casters: Hence the new Pentrating Arrow
Casters > Tanks : Bolt fixes
As it is now, Asassins are TOO > Archers, hence the See Hidden changes.

As a Caster, you should expect Archers to kick your ass, much as you should be able to nuke a tank into the ground given the range advantage. If you can't do this, then you have room to whine BUT ONLY ABOUT YOUR OWN CLASS. It is every players right in the game to complain how gimp they are - however, please have the courtesy to not drag anybody else into your pity-party.

"Let me say right now, there is no controversy. I was just having some fun with my friends, and that's it. And if you don't like that, Fuck you and your family too. Now let's talk about the game."
- Charles Barkley

ROFL @ the Sir Charles quote

Wait a sec - was that cat making out with that mouse? Cause if he was... <shakes fist>

"No one is arguing about how much skill it takes to play a character the frontiers. IMO, it doesn't take much skill to play ANY character, especially a wizard, now that you mention it. Stand and DD, that's it. Skill in this game and this discussion is a non-issue and it sounds like you just wanted to take a cheap-shot at stealthers. /shrug "

This sounds a lot more like a cheap shot, however its true I don't like stealth in any form and believe the game would be better without it. The skill issue was simply brought up because it was implied that to be taken down by Proto was due to bad play, he did this to a lot of people.
 
"None of this is relevent to the sorry state of archers in general. But since you mentioned it: One ranger one-shotted you a long time ago, so all archers are just fine? So what if ONE high-ranked archer played his character well against you. Should we keep all other archers down because ONE archer is successful? So ONE high-ranked archer out tanked another archer; so what? The random number generator and RAs helped him."

Archers in general back then were much like Assassins now, I don't desire archers to perform badly, just not return to the days when they were overpowered. And no Proto in both duels and RvR did this type of thing quite consistently. My original statement actually related more to Zerkers/enchanters with the aside that I didnt like the BT penetrating abilities and thought archer damage output was ok.

"Since this is an RvR game, deciding class balance on 1v1 encounters is an extremely narrow approach and thank the gods, Mythic doesn't base their changes on anecdotal observation of one player. I regularly kill Healers; does that mean Armsmen need a nerf?"

Given there success in class balance to date I think there methods are pretty suspect. And my opinions are not derived from one isolated instance, archers in general back then were overpowered. Though that is past it would be bad to return to that situation. Given some of the other changes that are coming through Im not sure that situation will come about.

"Where is the rest of your group? Are you out soloing as a wizard? Guard works extremely well. The tools to be a successful caster exist, it's not up to Mythic to make sure you use them. Can't find a good group or tank to guard you? You're going to die then; accept it because that's the way it is. It takes a good group, working together to really be successful in high-level RvR. That's the way it is. "

Soloing as a wizard is as im sure you know instant death, guard work well when you can get it, often it is not available and if you are other than an ice wizard you are unlikely to get it.  I can remember being guarded just once as a fire wizard. As to the tools existing to be successful? well for some classes they are in very short supply and if your group is anything but optimal  you are in trouble. Ill admit at my regular play times there is seldom even a full group let alone an optimal one and guards for even a ice wizard are a rarity and yes I have little choice but to wear that.

"I've seen archers taken out by casters with just a few casts. From my own anecdotal data, I surmise that casters are overpowered and need to be 'balanced.' See how it works?"

Well I haven't and I seriously doubt that is true accross the broad spectrum (though im assuming your are making that statement to illustrate rather than as an example), however im not basing my views on just a few instances but on what I have seen them do to me and  to others over a long period of time. And im not saying archers need nerfing, I know the assassin abilities were a major problem for them, truth is I see very few archers other than in seige situations dur to that but in those it is generally the archers who have the upper hand.  Archer abilities generally are closer to each other than caster ones which differ radically both between realms and between classes thus making making broad caster based assumptions far less realistic than those about general archer abilities.

"You automatically acquire your attacker as your target when someone shoots you."

This is true only if you do not already have a target in my experience, very often you do and you dont automatically aquire the person shooting you.

"Basing opinions of high-level RvR on a BG character does not give you the whole picture and is also why Mythic has stated that they won't make changes to the end-game based on the BGs."

My opinions are not based solely on my scout but also on the receiving end as a 50.

"Once again, the amount of skill it takes to play any character is not relevent. No one is trying to convince you that it takes skill to play a stealther, so why even mention it? It takes very little skill to play any character in this game. "

I don't agree with that so well have to agree to disagree.

"None of what you said addressed the points that archers have been suffering from insane fumble/miss rates and that PBT, so prevelant in other realms, has rendered archers useless. I didn't see you refute the Scout TL's report of missing 4 out of 5 shots. Are 80% of your spells resisted? Don't you see an archer missing 80% of his shots as an issue?"

Elsewhere it was stated that the fumble rates do not vary with level, nor do the miss rates. My experience then as a 26 archer is valid and while i don't doubt people like Durandana in citing dificulties I also know I don't miss often at all. I also very rarely fumble. Ie 1 fumble in 10 fights. I don't pretend to undestand why that is, but I know it is a fact. What changes at higher levels to make you miss/fumble more? Resists?? they lessen damage not stop you hitting (correct me if im mistaken there :) ) RAs?? I dont really know of any that make any of my charactes harder to hit by an archer.

"Sorry, but you have failed to convince me that archers don't need help. I play several casters, no archers and even I can see that archers are in a sorry state. Your one example of a successful archer one-shotting you is just not enough to sway me. Now, if I was reading posts on the boards of all archers, from every realm, one-shotting people left and right on a daily basis (like they did in the far, distant past), you would have a point, but this is just not happening. Archers, in general, need some love and Mythic agrees."

I wasn't aware I was trying to convince your of anything, nor am I. I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours, neither of which will influence Mythic in the least. Yes archers needed some help, what worries me is the historical tendancy to go too far and having been the victim of uber archers I have no desire to revisit those days. I would suspect that the new 2.5sec cast time for bolters might be just that also and certainly if implemented give archers a problem and prob most other classes as well given most bolters should be able to reach the hard cap of 2 seconds.

(Edited by Bolldar Bloodaxe at 4:56 am on May 8, 2003)

One thing I'd like to mention.  I've played quite a few 50's and given the decision to play either an archer or a caster, I'd choose archer.

I like the ability to survive 10% of all fights.  :)  

Oh ho ho!  Nice one Volkmar.  I survive 10%...if im in the zerg :)

I don't think I've seen such a heated argument on this board in a while.  I think Sodom was correct, in that just about anyone can be effective if they shut up and learn their role.  That is, until Mythic decided to tweak the game balance.  RAs and spellcrafting put it over the top.

In a group situation it goes:
Tanks>casters, support, archers
Assassin>archers,casters, support
archers>casters

In solo situation it goes:
casters>tanks (unless they have some RR and you don't have a pet)
archers>casters
assassins>archers, casters

And don't ever dare say you don't have to have skill to play this game.  Maybe for simple classes that get one primary attack form, but for a caster that may not always be true.

In any given fight, i have to dot, nearsight, disease, send pet, run away, root, and lifetap.  Sometimes I'll even throw a life transfer.  If i don't have a quick eye and hand, i pick the wrong target to nearsight, my aoe's only hit one person, or i get rushed by a tank who can 2 shot me.  I know druids have a similary situation, heals, dots, roots, pets.   So I say skill has a GREAT deal to do with how effective a player can be for those who's roles are quite varied.

BTW, we need some heavy damage dealers in our beatsquad, preferrably some wizzies or armsman, I don't have anyone to do enough damage and let Melissima block for him/her.

Enough of my rantings for now.

Tell you what,

Any of the Casters in the guild that wanna copy over to Pendragon and test things with me i will gladly do it.

We can see just how much damage both of us do to each other. Fair enough?

BTW... I don't use my Heavy Longbow since that extra half a second can be death in RvR. My Dragon bow is 5.0 speed not 5.5 speed. There is a little less damage right there and for me to really make sure that my shots get through PbT i have to use Hunting bow which is totally worthless damage. Now if i have really good buffs from a friendly Cleric i can use the Dragon bow and still have really good speed, but if i am solo or no buffs then its the crappy hunting bow.

Malison was copied over to pendragon this morning, I'll get on Pendragon today and we can duel a few times.  Will be interesting to see what kind of damge i see you do.  I'm going to respec him to spirit after our duels.  I don't really fear archers much with my spirit speed buff, runies are a different matter.

PS: I'll get on Iseult first just to see if you are around.  Maybe we can have some fun killing in caledonia afterwards :)

(Edited by Malison at 10:46 am on May 8, 2003)

I would be interested in testing, but how do you get to Pendragon?? I tried once in the past, got the message when i did the command but never got the email confirmation nor got a character created.

1. Log into pendragon and create a level 1 character. Your copy will retain this characters name.
2. Log into that character and type:

/charcopy Iseult Amerasu

3. Log off that character, and wait till you get the confirmation email. Do not log back into that character until you receive an email.

Make sure you have all the equipment you want the copy to have equipped before  you do the command.  For instance, if you want to copy to pendragon and respc to fire, make sure you have a Fire staff equipped on Amerasu.

I have 4 copies of Malison there now, 1 matter, one body, and 2 spirit.  Its great fun.

Ah I did log back before i got a confirmation email, though I actually never got an email. Would that explain it?

Either that, or they don't have your proper e-mail address?  Or you may have just mistyped it.  The important thing is just to remember to type /charcopy Iseult Amerasu from your Pendragon character.

"This sounds a lot more like a cheap shot"

Of course it does, because it is. Tit for tat and all that.

"Archers in general back then were much like Assassins now"

"archers in general back then were overpowered"

Not really what we were talking about, eh? I think this discussion is centered around archer's performance today. Not 'back in the day.' They suck NOW and need help.

<I've seen archers taken out by casters with just a few casts. From my own anecdotal data, I surmise that casters are overpowered and need to be 'balanced.' See how it works?>

"Well I haven't and I seriously doubt that is true accross the broad spectrum (though im assuming your are making that statement to illustrate rather than as an example), "

Thank you. Yes, that was the point and I'm glad you recognized it. Personally, I have seen casters take lots of people, very quickly and not just archers.

The point is anecdotal evidence is biased and does not show a clear representation of what is happening. On top of that, your anecdotal evidence and personal observations date back about 12 months. Yep, a loooooong time ago, archers were uber, but that was quite a long time ago. They suck NOW and need help.

"truth is I see very few archers other than in seige situations..."

Hmm, why is it that you don't see many archers?

"My opinions are not based solely on my scout but also on the receiving end as a 50."

From 'back in the day,' you mean. Archers really are not as uber as you think they are anymore. Back in the day, archers killed me, a plate wearer.

"Elsewhere it was stated that the fumble rates do not vary with level, nor do the miss rates. My experience then as a 26 archer is valid and while i don't doubt people like Durandana in citing dificulties I also know I don't miss often at all."

The random number generator has been kind to you, that's all; it happens. While it may be valid, it's not the case, to use your words, "accross the broad spectrum." This is why personal observation and anecdotal data is incomplete.

The Scout TL has performed tests and it's been documented and submitted to Mythic. I'm sure that is a huge part of why the fumble/miss rates are being adjusted. Just whining 'I miss alot!' gets you nothing. Going to Pendragon, performing extensive tests and then submitting logs to the devs is what helps bring about change.

Basically, your whole argument was based on your own personal observation of 'way back when' and that you don't want to return to that. While your observations may have had some validity back then, it doesn't reflect archers today. I agree and I don't think anyone (except maybe archers) wants to see archers returning to the uber sniping days.

At least you finally conceded that archers need help.

mythic did say that archer's fumble rate was much higher for archers, so im not gunna discuss that, but on the subject of just plain misses you have to realize that bow shots are basicly styled attacks that give you no bonuses (i.e. they use endurence, but give no damage bonus, status effect, defencive bonus and most importantly no to-hit bonus). the lack of any to-hit bonus is part of what makes archers have such high miss rates in rvr (just plain miss, not talking about BT's or any of that). one thing that ive been thinking about as an explination for bolldar's aparent lower miss rate would be enimy armor factor. at low levels enimy armor factors would be much lower, and as far as i know thats a big factor in the "hit or miss" calculation. now, combine this with the no to-hit bonus on bow shots and you would probably see a significantly higher miss rate at higher levels. just a thought.

now on another note, why the hell do shield users get a bonus vs. arrows? not just a small bonus either, they are TWICE as likely to block an arrow as they are a normal shot. as far as i know thats fact, not generalization...i can understand a little bonus, but 200% seems a little harsh

about the miss rates, i think your distance from the target should have something to do with a "to hit" factor. Im only saying this because I recall duoing with LB once and the monster was like 2 ft from him, and he missed it with his bow... thats pretty unrealistic, dumb, and would make a scout as LB would put it, a "fumbling retard."

they should have a set range that is the median, like... lets say 2000 or so.... when the target gets further and further range > 2000, then the to hit percent should decrease. and when the range < 2000, you should get a higher percent to hit bonus.

just a thought....

/me gets application for Mythic Game Engineer

I think the shield bonus is even higher than that. I can tell you that with 50+15 shield and mastery 3, I have never been shot with a bow in the 180 degree arc in front of me. Dating back as far as mastery 2, which I've had for months, I can't remember getting hit with a bow. One time I was guarding someone during a siege and blocked at least 100 shots. They did connect once (oneshot kill) but I believe my squishy lagged beyond my guard range.

I think the forumla for bowshots is
30% + (1% * shieldspec) + Masterylevel * 6 + (dex bonus)

So for axe with buffs it would be over 100%. Indeed, anybody with 50 shield would have over a 95% chance to block arrows.

30 + 65 + 18 + (dex bonus; not sure what'd be).

Historically with a large shield you could pretty much block most arrows. Of course some very powerful bows could penetrate a sheild though the pull on those bows was pretty horendous. Of course arced shots were somewhat effective against shielded troops if some shots were arced and others straight at the target.

Against a single archer though a sheilded warrior (large shield) could reasonably expect to block most shots.

My views on archers btw dont stem from the distant past but that is certainly not something i want to return too.