Vengeance

I hear a lot of complaining that Albions do not do a lot of high lvl RvR and we need more higher lvl chars to get relics back.  My toons are realatively lower lvl beinging in their 30's.  So I look for a group and can't find one near my lvl, but do notice there are a couple of 50's PLing a lvl 6 Sorc in AC (I assume that it is a twink of one of the people there).  I figure that as a fire wizzy I could contribute with dmg buff and dmg shield.  But no there is no PLing going on.  In fact the lvl 6 is solo in AC.  Sure whatever.  I can't see the lvl 50 people needing the xp and would it take that much xp away from the lvl 6 if somebody else was added?  It seems that this guild has turned into the high school click.  There are the "in" people and everybody else.  If you are one of the click people, we will PL your toon all you want, if not, get on the xp treadmill and grind on.  People get tired of spending hours trying to lvl up only to see somebody make a new toon and within a short period of time reach the same lvl as them.  And now Mythic has made it easier with their new "free" toon program.  Yes there was an effort to do twink night, but seems to have turned into BG3 night and wasn't even done this week.  So when all of you high lvl people want to know why there are not enough people your lvl to retake relics or do RvR, look no farther then the end of your nose.

Never force yourself on other people. If there's one value I'd like to impress upon you, it's to respect other people's time in the game.

There's been tons of times when the rvr group I'm in needed speed, heals, even tanks (low damage syndrome) and what we need is doing something else. So I ask once, and a lot of times I get the answer "I'm just tradeskilling for a bit." or "I just want to chat and hang out for a little while." Some folks would badger and cajole; but I'd much rather respect that person's wishes and let them play how they want.

You may be offered powerlevelling during your time here. But I don't expect to hear you complain about not being powerleveled again. If you want a guild that will heap free drops and hours of PL upon you, this isn't it. Vengeance helps those that help themselves.

"Clique" not "click". And the BG group ran Tuesday, but it was just me and Malison, and we stopped around 1030 EST.

If the xp grind is bothering you, I'd recommend four things:
* Try some RvR in whatever battleground you're in. If that isn't feasible,
* Roll an alt, preferably a solo-capable one or someone who gets easy groups. Example: friar, cleric, paladin.
* Quest. I've done nearly every one of the Albion quests, in classic and SI. A lot of them are stupid; a lot of them are fun and soloable.
* Play a different game. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. I like to take a day to play something else every now and then.

Axe hit this right on the nail.  I play this game for fun, not for charity work.  

I had offered to help Nari level his lowbie while I was talking with him earlier.  My usual rule is no more than two lowbies or afk's in the group if there's a pl group going.  Otherwise it's too difficult for me to do my job if I'm the only tank.

I've been through the grind over and over.  I've leveled four level 50's and various other characters in the 40's  range and numerous chars in the 20's and 30's.  I know how tough it is to group and to level.  I help others, but I don't go out of my way to do so.  

If I pl'd everyone in the game that asked me for it, I wouldn't be able to do anything else.      

My posting certainly was not a complaint about not being PL'd.  My post was to maybe get people to think a little differently.  It was a possible solution to a problem that the higher lvl people of Albion seem to have, they lack numbers in higher lvl RvR.

I would never force myself on anybodies group nor badger them.  I asked once and got a total BS story.  It really made me feel like $h!t to be lied to from people in my own guild.  

"Clique" no "click".  Whatever, it got the point across.  Thanks for the English lesson.  You know as well as anybody else, if you said "hey this is Axe with my new toon" people could not have invited your char fast enough.

well, I'll chime in with my two cents...

One thing to consider in that specific AC situation (I wasn't there so I really have no idea what went down) is that, while the 50's may not need the xp, everyone needs cash and you can do worse than farm for salvage drops there.  It's possible and plausible that they were just horsing around getting some cash and someone decided to show up w/ their lvl 6 hoping for a little free PL, and it may or may not have happened.

Regardless, I think the type of response you've gotten to this post is a direct result of the tone of your original message (and the follow-up wasn't much different).  Personally, I thought that maybe 10% of the original post mentioned a "possible solution to a problem", and the rest of it was a gripe about either not being PL'd, other people being PL'd and passing you, or questionable treatment from guildies.  The dripping sarcasm (although we're all guilty of being sarcastic to some degree at times) is also probably not the best way to convince people to spend their own personal time PL'ing you, you know what I mean?  I'm reminded of a saying that goes something like "You catch more flies with honey than you do with shit".

Along the same line, in response to somewhat petty statement regarding a hypothetical new Axe toon being PL'd immediately, I will agree with you on one level.  I personally would in fact probably drop what I was doing (within reason) to PL a char for Axe [note, this is rhetorical because someone with access to 4857573 accounts probably doesn't need PL luvvin most days].  The part that seems to be escaping you is that my reason for doing this would be because of the amount of time Axe has spent PLing/helping/crafting/leading/listening for me and many others.  I guess I could sum up my long-winded response by saying that you pretty much get out of the guild what you put into it.  

EDIT:  and as a matter of courtesy, it would be cool to see gripes of this sort in the private guild forum as opposed to the public forum that anyone can access.  I'm certainly not discouraging anyone from airing their concerns, but some things should probably be considered guild business and handled as such.

(Edited by Rosslyn at 10:26 pm on May 9, 2003)

i know the suckage of xp'ing well zanrath. ive been playing sence a month after release and still dont have a 50 yet. ive been in this guild sence about 2 or 3 weeks after that. Ive always known the members of this guild to be helpful and accomidating whenever posible to all other members. personally i'd be happy to PL you or any other member, and would do so redily if i had the right componets in a group for my wizard, however there are often times when people are busy or not looking to deal with powerleveling (it can bring a lot of complications, i.e. keeping the lowbee alive, more adds coming, ect) or their semi-afk, or just looking to kill a few mobs while they watch a movie (my personal favorite ;)) my best advice is to just have fun with the game and the people in it, get to know everybody and maybe you'll get a few PL offers

As far as the Twink night thing,

I am not sure if you was around when we started it so i will explain the deal with that.

We wanted to start alts and try to create a Beatsquad for RvR with it. We would level the beatsquad to the various levels for the different BG's and then cap out on RP's for each one as we went.

The whole reason for the twink night really, was to get a full group of our alts to level 35 and have fun in BG3.

For various reasons it is not going to well right now because a lot of the people that started it dropped out. But It was not supposed to be Powerlevel the alts night.

Now with the free level 20's coming out maybe we can set aside one of the nights as alt night and use that to help the lower levels. That will have to be put up for discussion. Maybe leave Tuesday evening as BG3 night and call Wednesday evening twink night. Doesnt really matter to me as long as 1 of the nights is reserved for our BG3 toons.

"got a total BS story"

Heh, I was just being humorous.  

Let me tell you something.  Almost 50% of all the people that ask for pl that I turn down give me some nasty remark after I tell them no.  Even if I said it as politely as possible.  I've even had people call me rude for not helping them out.  Personally, I'm sick of the whole thing.  If this game is causing a person that much trouble that it isn't fun, that person needs to take a break or quit.  

    

"You may be offered powerlevelling during your time here. But I don't expect to hear you complain about not being powerleveled again. If you want a guild that will heap free drops and hours of PL upon you, this isn't it. Vengeance helps those that help themselves."

This part was worth repeating.

i'll make this quick... there isn't much pride in a powerlevel'd toon

I agree with Amb. There's a reason why most people who get PL'd toons or buy theirs off ebay end up quitting within 2 months.

I'd also state that I have no confidence in a player's ability to play their PL'd toon - the grind to 50 is what teaches you to play your toon.

I'll agree to an extent.  If you've been playing this game long enough though, it doesn't take much to learn a new character.  

And after you've done the level grind over and over, pl'ing is all you can stand.  But for someone starting the game fresh... I have no sympathy for.  I didn't get any pl'ing on my original characters.  

I wanted to add my thoughts on this one - being an ex guildie and all :)

First of all it does not matter what level you are or how many rps you have... truth be told if you stink you stink. I am the prime example of being a pl'd toon... I would say most people would tell you that I use to stink big time. Not a clue about buffage and I didn't use the right heals (the list went on). I had to start learning this stuff and after I did, I realized man I did stink. It doesn't pay to get pl'd because you still won't know how to "really" play your toon to the best of your ability. This game has stats but its really the knowledge of the game, and the person behind the toon that makes the toon good not the level nor the rps.

Being a huge RvR fan, I look well beyond the level and look at the whole picture. I would rather have an informed player than one who doesn't understand the game.

Just a few thoughts from me - Enjoy the leveling as much as you can. There are some cool drops to get - have fun with the lower levels.

Hi Mattee!

How about some RvR PLing?  :)

First let me say, most of this post is directed at everyone, not Zanrath.

Powerleveling? Tough finding groups?? I think i know a thing or two about that!  

I spent the majority of my career, solo, and not by choice. Cabalists had nothing to give to groups for the longest time, shunned even.  The only time I could get a group was when the Vengeance people decided to forma  guild group.  Now that almost everyone has a 50, thats not quite so common.

So first off let me say, I know what you are going through.  Soloing isn't very fun, and with all these buffbots running around, its hard to find a group.  

Here are my thoughts on powerleveling, since that's probably my only forte these days:

NEVER ask to be power leveled. Joke about it if you like, but its downright rude, even to guildies.  Some of us feel really guilty telling our friends to go away, so will just give in and do it, even though we aren't having any fun.
I'll freely offer to PL people if I'm in the mood, need cash, or am in a group that wouldn't be hindered by an extra person.  I powerlevel Lifesbane's characters on a frequent basis, and can usually add another with no problem.

And yes, the level 6's experience DOES degrade after 3 people, significantly.  I'm not saying they shouldn't bother to lend you a spot, a level 6 should be doing kill tasks, not getting PL'd.  If i ever have more than 3 people (including myself) in a group doing pygmies, the exp goes to hell and its not even worth my time being out there.

Concerning the twink night, Duran covered the point pretty well. We created our characters with the idea of a cohesive group who learned to play RvR well together.  We play every tuesday and wednesday, though some of us are too busy to play both nights.   One of the big assumptions was that we would also stay fairly close in levels, so we drug out the levelling process a lot longer so people could stay caught up if they missed a night.  A lot of people didn't stay very committed to the idea, or had other obligations.  So we were left with a huge level disparity and very low participation past level 24.  Its somewhat frustrating to me that we are out there like clockwork and then people complain about there not being guild groups.  We've given people every opportunity to keep up with us and join our squads, but some would rather play their high level characters, some would rather roll a new alt, and others would rather race to 50 ahead of us.  That's fine, its their option, but I don't want to be guilt tripped saying there's no guild support for levelling lowbies. I'm on every tuesday and wednesday from 5:30 to 10, ready to pull out my level 34 paladin, I hope more of you will join us, because I LOVE seeing the guild together.

I will say this, if you want to be involved in the beatsquad, plan for it.  Clear your tuesday and wednesday evenings, pick a character, level it up to 20 with kill tasks, and then contact me in game.  I'll do whatever I can to make sure you get involved, whether it be powerlevel at the tanglers or just invites into our level 30 guild groups.  But I want to see participation thereafter, not play a couple of nights then shelve the character for a month.

Albion's problem isn't lack of 50s. Its lack of RvR participation, skill, instas, and general morale. More numbers would help of course, but we have the numbers, they just dont play.

Zanrath - I notice you have 2 characters who could be a big help in our squad: Phaosa and Zanrath.  Bring them out.  Like I said, we are always looking for more.  Melissima still needs a level, and so I'm up for levelling when possible.  Same goes for Sammuel if you see him.

(Edited by Malison at 9:15 am on May 12, 2003)

So I guess I'll jump in with my first post.  Have to start somewhere, I suppose... :)

While Zanrath did mention PLing, I don't think that was intended to be the "meat" of the post, or the focus of his complaint.

Myself being a newcomer to both the guild and game, I'm slogging up through the levels much like everybody else has done in the past.  I'm still a n00b, and that's probably not going to be changing any time soon. :)

However, about the only reason I play the game is because of a sense of community.  I'm a social player, and I get a lot more enjoyment out of joking around and chatting than I get from killing the same mob 200 times.  As such, I look to play the game with other people.  99% of the time, I'm grouped with Zanrath (or an alternate of his), but it's even cooler when we hook up with a bunch of Vengies to go tackle something.

Which is why "twink night" is so cool.  I finally got my main character up to the same level as everybody's alternates. :)

Now, in the conversation(s) I've read in guild chat -- and on this forum -- over the last few months, I've gotten the impression (however correct it may be) of the following:

1) Albs suck in RvR.
2) The Mids and Hibs not only own us, but all our relics.
3) The reason we don't do better is because of a lack of level 50 chars for RvR.

Now, despite my finesse with computer games, and general lack of knowledge with this one in particular, I'm a reasonably competitive person.  I wanna get up there "with the big boys" and help out with the ass-kicking.  And I don't think I'm alone in feeling like that.

Because of this, there are times when it's somewhat frustrating traveling the slow route up to 50.  I completely respect the fact that you've all blazed the trail before me; several times over, actually, for some of you.

However, some of the higher-level individuals have been recently stating their own frustration with the RvR situation, and I think this has led to the current confusion.

I think what Zanrath wanted to point out is that it's a bit disheartening for us to see the higher level individuals complaining about there not being more high level players around for RvR; especially when we're working as hard as we can to get ourselves up there.  As you've all said, it's not easy, and it takes a damn lot of effort.  We will get there, but it's going to take a little while.

I would never, in a million years, want to detract from another’s enjoyment of the game; but realize that when we hear the lamenting from the high-level people about the RvR situation, it gives the impression that the game would be even more enjoyable for them if there were a whole bunch of level 50 Albion players.  And, if I understand correctly the point that Zanrath is trying to convey, it is in these moments that some of the lower level players wonder why there isn’t a more proactive effort being made to get the lower level players up to 50.

Whether the assumption is correct or not is immaterial; it’s merely what gets inferred from the message traffic.  I seriously doubt that anybody wants to leech, or be a “charity case”.  We just really want to help out and have fun.  And as such, Zanrath was suggesting a possible solution to everyone’s problems: the high level players wanting more people for some ass-kicking RvR, and the lower level players wanting to speed up the process to attain the lofty level of 50.  Everybody wins.

Sadly, even more bodies out there won't really help us win, unless we bring so many new faces that we have a huge numerical advantage.  

Midgard has been winning for a while now.  One of their beat squads has more Realm points than the entire alb zerg combined.  They've got experience, some even have tactics.  Most importantly, they have a cohesive group of people that play together daily, in the same setup. They know each others skills and play off that.  

Alb forms pickup groups.  While a pickup group can do very well if they take the time to put together the right number of classes, they still will be lacking when going up 8v8 against most midgard veterans.  I've found a tank heavy alb group with a cleric with BoF and a minstrel with SoS does particularly well. Add in a cabalist for nearsight and disease and you'll do even better :)

There's an entire flame-ridden thread about why albs don't do so well in RvR over on the IGN Iseult boards.  Some of the top things I've seen posted are:
*low population <-- we have less 50s than mid, but more than hibernia, and you don't see hibernia hurting so badly
*Because everyone knows camelot, the teenagers and casual gamers come here <--probably true, casual gamers don't want to wake up at 6 am to defend relics, nor do they get excited about taking keeps when they could farm RP in emain
*Lack of instas <--this plays a big part in 8v8 combat, since that will determine who wins if both groups see each other at the same time, also contributed to bad morale in alb
*No leaders <--not true, we have several good leaders
*No followers <--this is almost absolutely true.  Trying to get all the albs to do the same thing is the most horrendous experience in the game, next so Sidi raids at least.

We have the population and 50s to compete, they just don't care to.  They are all heartbroken, they'd rather PvE raid, craft, or level an alt to give them a supposedly better advantage. most alb groups lack skill and cohesive fighting experience.  We need all of these things to win.

Or we can do like the Alb servers that are winning and just outnumber our foes 2 or 3 to 1 every time.  But that's the cheap way.

Well, Mali that gets back to us trying to form groups of our own to try to play together out there. Kinda hard to do that when we are all scattered to the 4 winds doing our own thing doesn't it?

Maybe we just need common goals?

about the whole leadership thing:
I think we have some great leaders.
I've also lead a few raids myself, some were very good, and some, if you havn't heard already, were where about 30 albs diliberatly disobeyed me and tried to fish 5 hibs out of that tower and all got killed over and over again.

I also agree that too many cooks spoil the broth. I've seen leaders compete with eachother about tactics and strategies. Sometimes its better to just follow other even if you know that they're wrong, (its a bad moral to follow in RL, but sometimes good in the game).

although competing strategies will yeild no good result, introducing strategies is always helpful. In a keep raid, something as simple as saying "they're repairing, we need a pbaoer on the doors," or a "need a sorc to cast amnesia into lord room after 2nd door goes down," is a good way help out without interfering.

I keep repeating myself when I say I've seen albs do really well when working as a team, but it bears repeating...

"Scattered to the 4 winds" indeed.

We could try to make a guild schedule, and post it to the frontpage - Monday nights is MLF night, Tuesday night is Alb twinks, Wednesday night is Alb RvR, Thursday night is Bors, etc.

Of course, this doesn't help me, seeing as I play post 11pm EST, but still ;)

I agree that we have enough people in the realm that can and try to lead. That is not the problem.

The problem is when people try to lead on this server all the cry-babies and people that are jealous come out and seem to do whatever it takes to make said leaders job so frustrating that they just log and eventually don't even try anymore.

When we go to RvR we need to pick one person in the chat as leader and follow them. The people need to do what that person says even if they don't agree 100%.

Good example of Albs being stupid follows...

yesterday while dead at M1 i decide to not release and just play dead spy for the chat group. Hibs was out with their 4 group zergarama. Mids try to hit them once with smaller numbers. Hibs win. The whole time this is going on i am giving the info to chat group.

Albs hit the Hibs from Alb side before the Hibs are fully ready. Tough fight starts. Then 1 Mid group hits Hibs from behind and helps eliminate them. Mids stay on Hib side. It is repeatedly said on chat thats its 1 group and they are right in front of doors.

The call to charge is given. Guess what happens? Instead of charging as 1 force the Albs go through the doors in 1's and 2's and the whole army is destroyed by 1 group.

All they had to dio was charge when they was told to and there probabaly would have only been a couple deaths for the Albs.

I see this kinda crap out there every day LOL

I would disagree that Albions are worse players  than Mids or Hibs, I think thats a kind of ridiculous assumption and overall Albion has considerably more 50s than any realm though Iseult I think is an exception. Accross all servers Albion only tends to do well where they have a big advantage in numbers and on average Albion has about 30% more 50s and about 30% less Realm points according to the Camelot Seer.

Instas, poor CC, inferior tanks (vs Mids) inferior nuker vs both other realms all contribute to our general situation. Better CC and instas have made the other realms look more organised and cohesive than Albion, personally I think Midgard is the kiddies realm, its the easiest and its where most young kids gravitate too. I know my son does.

Its true to say we have a moral problem, on Iseult we are generally outnumbered and tend to get cleaned up often on even fights due to  the aformentioned factors. True sometimes we cock up but then so do they, Albion doesn't own the patent on stupid play.

An example of why we do poorly in seige situations is that the primary nuker (bolt classes in Middie and Hib) both have there GT AOE on there primary bolt line, ie would be like a fire wizard having GTAOE as well. Hence for us to do a lot of GTAOE is a rarity but in those situations both defence and offence we cop a lot of it, they rarely do. Healer/mezzers is a big bonus in Midgard also as it means both healing and mezzing is plentiful and the same situation occurs in Hibernia. Versatility means they tend to have backups for primary talents they need, we are usualy lucky to have one CCer or healer and spares are a rarity.

Class imbalance plays a big part and i think that it is unfortunate that Albion classes generally have been more specialised which should make them more powerful in there chosen feild but without the power advantage to compete with there more versatile brethren in other realm.

On the subject of PLing I know that its not comulsory in our guild but it certainly doesnt hurt to do it if your farming for cash and it doesnt make the group dangerous.  Having said that I have generally found most, but not all people will do that if the occasion is right, I know I and many of the other posters here do.

/agrees w/ Bolldar.

:confused:

did I just type that?

:)

Quote

We could try to make a guild schedule, and post it to the frontpage - Monday nights is MLF night, Tuesday night is Alb twinks, Wednesday night is Alb RvR, Thursday night is Bors, etc.

Of course, this doesn't help me, seeing as I play post 11pm EST, but still ;)

I, personally, like the idea of a guild schedule.  It would be nice to have an idea -- on any given night -- where the best chance is to find everybody else.

well my schedual until school ends is the following:
on weekdays I usually only play like 30 minutes or so.
on weekends, depending on RL, I'm either on all day and take the night off with friends, or out all day and spend the night on DAoC

I think if we do something like weekends are main server days (iseult) so we can save all the days we play on bedevere, bors, or MLF for weekdays, just so that on weekends when most people (albs, mids, and hibs) come on to RvR, we can mebbe form a guild group so we have some form of an overmind in the zerg.

(Edited by Amberryl at 9:10 pm on May 14, 2003)

penguins are cool :)

Nerf zerkers.

1.62 gueuze :)

about some kind of schedual: i think it's a great idea, but i dont know if it would have much more sucess then what we do now...i know the problem for me is that i dont have consistant play times. untill school gets out im pretty much forced to just play at random random times i have nothing more important to do...good thing i dont actually do school work or any of that junk or i wouldnt be able to play at all :(

hehe woops, the above post is actually me..not amber. i was using a comp amber had his username/password on already and accidentally posted under his gimp name

haxxored!

LB is like one of those people I saw in that delightful film The Net - he's out to steal our identities!

Have fun with my $600 Discover card debt, LB ;)

speaking of haxx0red, i believe ikonboard has an exploit in the help files...
but i took a look at it and i think its fixed, havn't gotten in touch with zaius yet to check up on it though

$filetoopen = "$ikondir" . "help/$inhelpon.dat";
$filetoopen = &stripMETA($filetoopen);
open(FILE, "$filetoopen") or die "Cannot locate the required files";

this can be fixed by inserting the following in line 43 of help.cgi

$inhelpon =~ s/\///g;

(Edited by Amberryl at 8:42 pm on May 15, 2003)

Your geek-speak confuses and frightens me.

Heh.

phj33r hax0rs

speaking of which, where is zaius anyways?

He cancelled about a month ago.

can I be the new board admin?

thats too bad = (
i could host boards if you need need me to, i just need to wait until summer to get my act together, things are kinda helter scelter atm.